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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 03:41 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Assume 23,333 instead of 21,900 kWhs per wind farm acre per year. Then the number of acres required to generate say 11% of Houston's electric power requirements of less than 7 billion kwh = 7 billion / 23,333 kWhs per acre = 300,000 acres. There are 640 acres per square mile. So 300,000 / 640 = 469 square miles. The area of Houston, Texas is about 260 square miles. So the area required by a wind farm to provide only 11% of Houston's electric power requirements = 469 / 260 = 1.8 times the area of the City of Houston Exclamation


I see that little calculation is based on 1.5MW turbines. Doesn't seem to make sense. Modern turbines go up to 6 - 7MW, prototypes in the 7.5MW range are being built.


ican711nm wrote:
Not a good solution for Houston, because the city of Houston has many neighboring communities.


... and we all know that there's no way to transport electricity easily. Tough luck for the city of Houston.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 04:03 pm
old europe wrote:
I see that little calculation is based on 1.5MW turbines. Doesn't seem to make sense. Modern turbines go up to 6 - 7MW, prototypes in the 7.5MW range are being built.


I am skeptical of this. To my knowledge 1.5MW machines are the largest that have yet been put in large scale production anywhere. Just an elementary calculation reveals that a very large rotor diameter would be required for a 7.5MW machine - a feature that would present some fairly significant structural problems (solvable no doubt with carbon filaments). More significantly, the starting inertia would be high and some fairly unusual local wind conditions would be required to make it practical. Finally, in any application of wind turbines, the aveage power produced is around 30% of the maximum capacity.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 04:15 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I am skeptical of this. To my knowledge 1.5MW machines are the largest that have yet been put in large scale production anywhere. Just an elementary calculation reveals that a very large rotor diameter would be required for a 7.5MW machine - a feature that would present some fairly significant structural problems (solvable no doubt with carbon filaments). More significantly, the starting inertia would be high and some fairly unusual local wind conditions would be required to make it practical. Finally, in any application of wind turbines, the aveage power produced is around 30% of the maximum capacity.


Well, what can I say? The Queen of England just just bought one...
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 04:21 pm
Btw... the world's largest wind turbine before was the German Enercon E-126, with its 138 meters (453 feet) high tower with 45cm (18 inches) walls, and a rotor diameter of 126 meters (413 feet):

http://www.metaefficient.com/wp-content/uploads/enercon_e126.jpg

http://www.metaefficient.com/wp-content/uploads/enecron_wind_turbine_bottom.jpg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 04:57 pm
Old Europe:

1. HOW MANY MEGAWATTS PER ACRE IF ONE WERE TO USE THOSE 7.5 MEGAWATT TURBINES?

2 WHAT MUST THE SPEED OF THE WIND BE TO TURN ONE OF THOSE TURBINES AT THE REQUIRED RPM TO GENERATE 7.5 MEGAWATTS PER HOUR?

3. WHAT DO THEY EXPECT THOSE TURBINES WILL COST TO MANUFACTURE?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 05:10 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

...


...

Almost half of the televisions sold around the globe so far this year have been plasma or LCD TVs.

But this boom could be coming at a huge environmental cost.

...

Dr Paul Fraser is the chief research scientist at the CSIRO's marine and atmospheric research centre, and an IPCC author.

He says without measuring the quantity of NF3 in the atmosphere it is unclear what impact it will have on the climate.

"We haven't observed it in the atmosphere. It's probably there in very low concentrations," he said.

"The key to whether it's a problem or not is how much is released to the atmosphere."

ABC LINK

Have those UN IPCC hypochondriacs decided whether or not NF3 = nitrogen trifluoride is toxic, noxious, or will make the atmosphere warmer or colder?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 05:56 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

...


...

Almost half of the televisions sold around the globe so far this year have been plasma or LCD TVs.

But this boom could be coming at a huge environmental cost.

...

Dr Paul Fraser is the chief research scientist at the CSIRO's marine and atmospheric research centre, and an IPCC author.

He says without measuring the quantity of NF3 in the atmosphere it is unclear what impact it will have on the climate.

"We haven't observed it in the atmosphere. It's probably there in very low concentrations," he said.

"The key to whether it's a problem or not is how much is released to the atmosphere."

ABC LINK

Have those UN IPCC hypochondriacs decided whether or not NF3 = nitrogen trifluoride is toxic, noxious, or will make the atmosphere warmer or colder?


Beats me. I never heard of the stuff. But they sure seem to be laying the groundwork for it to be a problem. Smile

Personally I wish they were more concerned about where all that mercury from spent and broken CFL's is likely to go.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 06:06 pm
So far those UN IPCC hypochondriacs have not claimed that NF3 is produced by our production of energy for electric power or transportation. Shocked Probably that claim will come during the Democratic convention the first week of September.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 04:51 pm
I wonder how much concern you have for where the mercury contained in Coal emissions goes?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:01 pm
Quote:
Environmental and health risk analysis of nitrogen trifluoride (NF(3)), a toxic and potent greenhouse gas.Tsai WT.

Graduate Institute of Bioresources, National Pingtung University of Science and Technology, Pingtung 912, Taiwan.

This article aimed at the introduction of nitrogen trifluoride (NF(3)) and its decomposition products into its hazards to the environment and health because this perfluorocompound is a toxic and potent greenhouse gas not blanketed into the Kyoto Protocol. This paper also predicted the global NF(3) emissions from the electronics industry on the basis of the methodologies recommended by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and further discussed its atmospheric implications according to the estimation of environmental fate for NF(3). It showed that the vaporization of NF(3) from the water bodies to the atmosphere is very high according to its predicted value (ca. 6.0x10(5)MPa) of Henry's law constant (K(H)). Furthermore, NF(3) emitted from the electronics industry around the world in 2006 was estimated to be between 3.6 and 56 metric tonnes and it will be on increasing trend in the near future. Although the accumulative amount of NF(3) in the atmosphere currently should be very negligible based on the predicted ratio (the order of 10(-6) to 10(-7)) of equivalent CO(2) emission from NF(3) to total equivalent CO(2) emissions from potent greenhouse gases, it is necessary to adopt the available abatement and also monitor the concentration of NF(3) in the workplaces for reducing the overall environmental and health impacts of various semiconductor processes.



source :
U.S. NATIONAL LIBRARY OF MEDICINE
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:04 pm
I have a great deal of concern and objection to our poisoning our soil and water with heavy metals of any kind as I have repeatedly posted on this thread and elsewhere.

I also know that most mercury contamination is now contained at coal fired plants and they're working on the technology to capture the rest of it. Once they accomplish that, there will be no reasonable reason to restrict the use of coal as a plentiful and inexpensive energy source unless they can prove that greenhouse gasses emitted in the process are significantly changing the climate. I don't think they have proved that as yet, however, and I'm leaning pretty far over on the side that they never will.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:18 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I have a great deal of concern and objection to our poisoning our soil and water with heavy metals of any kind as I have repeatedly posted on this thread and elsewhere.

I also know that most mercury contamination is now contained at coal fired plants and they're working on the technology to capture the rest of it. Once they accomplish that, there will be no reasonable reason to restrict the use of coal as a plentiful and inexpensive energy source unless they can prove that greenhouse gasses emitted in the process are significantly changing the climate. I don't think they have proved that as yet, however, and I'm leaning pretty far over on the side that they never will.


The mercury is only the beginning; what about the millions of tons of radioactives, specifically uranium, which are released every year by burning coal? Not to mention a variety of other unpleasant substances. Or to mention that the mining of coal is a pretty unpleasant and destructive process.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:22 pm
How about you re-read what I just posted. It pretty well covers it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
How about you re-read what I just posted. It pretty well covers it.


Yeah, let us know when they get on top of catching all the uranium and sulfuric acid produced by coal smoke.

And whenever you're ready to address the fact that coal mining is environmentally destructive, go right ahead; you didn't do so in your last post.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 05:48 pm
MEGA WIND-TURBINES

5 MW wind-turbines were already operating in 2007 .
apparently there are plans for 1 GW turbines .


Quote:
August 31, 2007

The first 5 Mw wind turbine has been erected in the North sea to power an off shore platform. Its dimensions are impressive : the Rotor is composed of 3 blades, Diameter 126 m weight 120 tons supported by a mast of 90 m high. It has been developed by Multibrid Entwicklungs Gmbh using new manufacturing technologies like carbon fibers, glass fibers and plastic and also a new electricity generation system which is not an extension of that used for smaller units. It will also serve as a prototype for further developments of future projects. It is thought that this kind of wind turbines could be largely used for off shore wind farms ( up to 1 Gw ) where environmental impacts are less important than those created on the ground.





spource :
MEGA WIND-TURBINES
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 06:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
How about you re-read what I just posted. It pretty well covers it.


Yeah, let us know when they get on top of catching all the uranium and sulfuric acid produced by coal smoke.

And whenever you're ready to address the fact that coal mining is environmentally destructive, go right ahead; you didn't do so in your last post.

Cycloptichorn


Well let's see.

In 1984 we spent a lovely summer and fall in West Virginia in the heart of coal mining country. Mile for mile, West Virginia might be the most beautiful state in the country, but if not, it certainly is right up there near the top, coal mining and all. While we were there, the miners cut out the side of a hill to extract the coal leaving a nice large flat spot where the hill had been. The farmer that owned the land was thrilled. Flat land in West Virginia is hard to come by and here he had a nice big flat spot that he could build a barn or use in any number of ways. But no, federal regulations required that the land be restored intact. No amount of appeal by the farmer helped. The coal mining company was obligated to put back all that dirt and rock and restore the land as much as possible as it had previously been.

We also lived in extreme Southeast Kansas for awhile a very few miles from the Missouri state line. This area is generally very poor for ranching or farming--all scrub trees, brambles, bushes, and thin top soil. When the strip coal miners came in, they dug out enormous trenches up to 50 or more feet deep and a football field or three long to extract the coal. But this was before the land had to be restored so they didn't refill the trenches that filled with ground water creating great bass, crappie, perch, and catfish ponds and generating a huge tourist attraction. The new habitat for the fish is so great the state has to do minimal restocking.

The coal mines in New Mexico have left few visible scars and some have become great tourist attractions.

And we haven't even talked about the tens of thousands of jobs provided to people, many of whom became unemployed and impoverished when the coal mines shut down. It was hard and dangerous work, but the miners made a good living doing it and I think most would say that hard and dangerous work is preferable to no work.

As with anything, we have learned to do many things better, more safely, more profitably, and more environmentally friendly than we used to do things, and that will also certainly be the case with coal. We can learn to use it in ways that are friendly to the planet. And there are enormous amounts of it to use.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 07:27 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yeah, let us know when they get on top of catching all the uranium and sulfuric acid produced by coal smoke.

And whenever you're ready to address the fact that coal mining is environmentally destructive, go right ahead; you didn't do so in your last post.

Cycloptichorn

Your hysterical hypochondriasis is growing more intense everyday.

American life expextancy has increased from less than 60 in 1931 to more than 78 in 2008. You alleged all that improvement is due to our progress in medical technology, inspite of our environment becoming less healthy.

I assume you are of the opinion that if we were to stop or greatly reduce use of carbon based energy products, our life spans would increase even more. What you continually fail to take into account is that depriving us of carbon based energy products will drastically reduce our life expectancies due to our reduced access to healthy food, regardless of what happens to our medical technology. The mass starvation that deprivation will cause (and in the rest of the world has already started to cause) is not going to be cured by pills, hypodermic injections, oxygen masks, physical exercise, and going crazy.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 07:38 pm
ican711nm wrote:
What you continually fail to take into account is that depriving us of carbon based energy products will drastically reduce our life expectancies due to our reduced access to healthy food, regardless of what happens to our medical technology. The mass starvation that deprivation will cause (and in the rest of the world has already started to cause) is not going to be cured by pills, hypodermic injections, oxygen masks, physical exercise, and going crazy.


ican711nm wrote:
Your hysterical hypochondriasis is growing more intense everyday.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2008 11:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
How about you re-read what I just posted. It pretty well covers it.


Yeah, let us know when they get on top of catching all the uranium and sulfuric acid produced by coal smoke.

And whenever you're ready to address the fact that coal mining is environmentally destructive, go right ahead; you didn't do so in your last post.

Cycloptichorn


What is the answer then?

We can't use fossil fuels because of greenhouse gas emissions.

We can't use nuclear energy because of waste concerns

We can't use bio-energy because it will result in global hunger.

We can't use wind power because it disturbs Walter Cronkite's Cape Cod views and because it poses a threat to migratory birds.

We can't use hydro-electric power because it messes with salmon spawning patterns (not to mention birds).

If solar power is ever to serve as our primary source of energy we will require enormous solar energy collectors situated in pristine deserts or pristine space. The former will undoubtedly endanger a small lizard or arachnid, and the latter will eventually be accused of blocking sunlight that belongs to pristine portions of the world.

Geothermal energy -- that's the ticket! No wait, hot water from geothermal sources will contain dangerous trace elements. The water must somehow be disposed, but who wants arsenic, mercury et al in their rivers or agricultural fields?

Tidal power? No, the turbines are bound to spoil the pristine view of someone important, and all sorts of aquatic life will get caught up in the turbine blades.

So unless someone discovers a perpetual motion machine, dylithium crystals or fusion power, it looks like we'll just have to stop using energy.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2008 12:30 am
Finn illustrates why he is not an Engineer.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
 

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