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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 12:34 pm
Advocate wrote:
The right is ferocious in its rejection of science. Do you recall the recent testimony of the former Surgeon General.


Truly harmful and false ideas are frequently dressed up with the label of "science". Perhaps the most vivid example of this is Marxist theory about history and the class struggle, which proclaimed itself to be the only "scientific:" analysis of human history and social development. It is interesting to note that these ideas were very popular among liberal and self-styled "progressive" elites, even as the murderous tyrannies that proclaimed this theory revealed their real nature and even as they destroyed the economic promise of the states infected by them. Thgroughout all this liberal progressives remained loyal to the absurd theory in great numbers.

Advocate's statement above is at best a meaningless sweeping generality. On a deeper level he ignores the frequent abuse of the label of "science" by zealots throughout history and, as well, the many examples of unscientific nonsense put forward by advocates of various "tipping point" scenarios in the AGW propaganda storm.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:33 am
You know George its a remarkable fact, that what you agree with is based on solid evidence and science, and what you disagree with must therefore be unscientific nonsense.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 07:56 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
You know George its a remarkable fact, that what you agree with is based on solid evidence and science, and what you disagree with must therefore be unscientific nonsense.


Steve - your observation might (just a remote possibility, mind you, but it might) not be wholly unrelated to the fact George has graduate degrees in the sciences from Caltech. Advocate is, per his/her own representation, a lawyer.

Karl Marx had a doctorate in philosophy - which might account for the fact his economics never worked from a quantitative standpoint Smile
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 08:06 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Truly harmful and false ideas are frequently dressed up with the label of "science". Perhaps the most vivid example of this is Marxist theory about history and the class struggle, which proclaimed itself to be the only "scientific:" analysis of human history and social development.

In defense of the scientific community though, economists never quite took Marx's theories seriously. They discarded them well within his lifetime, and never looked back. The most thorough refutations of Marx come from Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, an Austrian economist, who also was a card-carrying liberal. From Mill to Keynes, liberal economists were vehemently anti-Marxists. Marx managed to dazzle journalists, laymen, and academics unaccustomed to rigorous research such as historians and philosphers. He fooled few of those with the credentials to understand his work.

Marxist academics were a much smaller caliber than meteorologist whistleblowers on global warming.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 08:31 am
WOW! This is a video you must watch
WOW! This is a video you must watch:

http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=p6o08udcmw
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 09:25 am
Bumble Bee, thanks for providing me the laugh of the day. Are you serious when you posted that link?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:22 am
Instead of showing your ignorance and being insulting why don't you refute the argument. After all that's what the guy in the video is asking.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:34 am
Re: WOW! This is a video you must watch
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
WOW! This is a video you must watch:

http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=p6o08udcmw

BBB-- To see the flaw in his argument, try working the same exercise for America's decision to attack Iraq, as it presented itself in December 2002. Using your source's methods, you will have to conclude -- falsely as we both agree -- that America was right to attack, given the uncertainty about Saddam's WMD program. The reason, in the words of Condoleeza Rice, is that "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Which, just as in the global warming excercise, is the bottom right corner in your source's decision matrix.

Arguments from worst-case scenario rarely make for sound public policy.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:08 am
That may be true for war but in this case he may have a good argument. However I think it's unrealistic. Even if you can convince Americans to cut back on carbon emissions you can never get poorer countries or emerging economies to cooperate. I can't see China spending hugh sums of money to curb pollution and she's is becoming a large player in the pollution scene.

I would like to see us curb pollution not so much for earth warming but for health reasons.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:40 am
xingu wrote:
That may be true for war but in this case he may have a good argument.

Why should there be a distinction? The logic of Visionary Boy's argument is exactly the same. In both cases you have a matrix with two rows and two columns. The rows say "the problem does/does not exist". The columns say "We do / do not act". For every box in the matrix, you imagine what happens. In the end, you choose the row whose worst case is the least bad.

Because the logic of the argument is the same in both cases, its application to Iraq is as brilliant or flawed as its application to global warming. Having seen it fail in the case of Iraq, I have reason to remain skeptical about it in the case of global warming.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:53 am
Well like I said I don't think anyone can do anything about global warming. It requires to much effort by to many people and nothing of significance will get done.

I think what will happen is the world will say the hell with it, let the earth get warm and we'll handle the consequences.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 11:55 am
High Seas wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
You know George its a remarkable fact, that what you agree with is based on solid evidence and science, and what you disagree with must therefore be unscientific nonsense.


Steve - your observation might (just a remote possibility, mind you, but it might) not be wholly unrelated to the fact George has graduate degrees in the sciences from Caltech. Advocate is, per his/her own representation, a lawyer.

Karl Marx had a doctorate in philosophy - which might account for the fact his economics never worked from a quantitative standpoint Smile
I'm not going to engage in a peurile debate as to who's degree is biggest.

I simply make the observation that you me or George are not the sole arbiters of what is or is not scientific/non scientific
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:03 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:

...............................

I simply make the observation that you me or George are not the sole arbiters of what is or is not scientific/non scientific


Indeed nobody - you, me, or George specifically - claimed to be sole arbiters of the matter.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:09 pm
Quote:
America's Unhealthy Commutes
Allison Van Dusen, 07.24.07, 9:00 AM ET

You might have heard that your commute is killing you. But it's not the doughnut and jumbo-sized coffee you've been downing every morning that's doing it.

What's really taking a toll on your health is the polluted air you're breathing, lengthy traffic delays and dodging accidents to and from work. Even as the stress mounts, we put up with it, since most of us can't afford to or don't want to live near our offices.

"It's a lifestyle choice," says David Rizzo, author of Survive the Drive! How to Beat Freeway Traffic in Southern California. "We put our health second. To have a big house, we're willing to put up with smog and a big drive. We sacrifice our longevity for short-term gains."

Behind The Numbers
To figure out which region is faring worst, we looked at three issues facing the country's 25 largest metropolitan areas.

First, we examined year-round particle pollution levels based on rankings by the American Lung Association, which used air monitoring data that states submitted to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from 2003-05. To estimate the time people spend in rush hour traffic, we used the Texas Transportation Institute's 2005 Urban Mobility Report, which calculated annual delays per traveler during peak hours in urban areas nationwide.

Finally, to get a sense of how dangerous the roads are, we compiled the number of per-capita fatal car accidents each region had in 2005 using the U.S. Department of Transportation's Fatality Analysis Reporting System.

Topping the list were Riverside, Calif., followed by Atlanta and Los Angeles. Rounding out the top five were Houston and Washington, D.C., which tied.

SoCal's Triple Whammy
Not only do commuters in Southern California inhale the worst year-round particle pollution levels, but Riverside drivers also face the highest rate of fatal auto accidents per capita, and Los Angeles drivers spend the most time sitting in traffic. In 2003, the annual delay per traveler there was 93 hours.

Long commutes, research has shown, can lead to loss of short-term memory, more days of missed work and such ailments as higher blood pressure, muscle tension and an accelerated heart rate.

Part of the problem is that, unlike New York City, where companies such as Citigroup are headquartered, Los Angeles doesn't have a single activity center. Instead it has a couple dozen, says Texas Transportation Institute research engineer Tim Lomax. As a result, most people have to drive long distances to get to their jobs, causing congestion and a higher likelihood of accidents. Companies headquartered here include the Walt Disney Co., and Northrup Grumman.

And because of its location in a basin, pollution in the Los Angeles area caused by diesel exhaust, barges, locomotives and other sources tends to stay put, says Janice Nolen, assistant vice president with National Policy and Advocacy for the American Lung Association.

Pollution Punch
While drivers busy trying to get to work may not notice it, the exposure is hurting them.

Ultra-fine particulate matter has been linked with premature death, cardiovascular disease and respiratory illness, according to the California Air Resources Board. Though it takes Americans an average of 25 minutes to drive to work, according to 2005 U.S. Census Bureau figures, the board estimates that over 50% of a person's daily exposure to ultra-fine particles can occur during a commute.

Likewise, a 2005 study by researchers at the University of Southern California's Keck School of Medicine showed that long-term exposure to ambient particulate matter may contribute to atherosclerosis, the hardening and narrowing of the arteries.

"Particle pollution kills people, whether they're breathing it in over a short period or day in and day out for a year," Nolen says. "It's not like being hit by a car, but it shortens the lives of people by months to years."

Even if you live in a city with low pollution levels, don't kid yourself; that doesn't necessarily mean your commute is healthy. A 2007 report by the Clean Air Task Force that investigated diesel exhaust levels during commutes in New York, Boston, Austin, Texas, and Columbus, Ohio, documented diesel particle levels four to eight times higher inside commuter cars, buses and trains than in those cities' ambient outdoor air.

The only commutes found to be low in diesel exposure were those on electric-powered subways and commuter trains, buses running on alternative fuels or retrofitted with diesel particulate filters, and in cars traveling with little truck traffic.

Top Tips
While you can't exactly control the safety levels of the roads you're driving on, and moving may not be on your agenda, you can do something.

To minimize your exposure to pollution, Conrad Schneider, advocacy director for the Clean Air Task Force, says drivers should try to avoid roads filled with trucks' diesel exhaust. If you can't avoid traveling with trucks, close your windows and set your air to recirculate. Of course, carpooling or taking public transit can cut congestion and travel times. You could also support the Clean Air Task Force and the American Lung Association's campaigns, which urge the EPA to set stricter pollution standards.

"There's no excuse in 2007 to have trucks belch black smoke in our faces when there are solutions to reduce the problem," Schneider says
.

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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:09 pm
http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/2007/07/23/health-commute-pollution-forbeslife-cx_avd_0724commute.html
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 12:16 pm
xingu wrote:
Instead of showing your ignorance and being insulting why don't you refute the argument. After all that's what the guy in the video is asking.


His argument is the one that is insulting. To sum it up, garbage in, garbage out. If you fill in the boxes with wrong assumptions, then the boxes do not offer logical conclusions.

His argument is refuted easily. He filled in the boxes with wrong assumptions. He claims nobody has refuted his argument, which is probably another fallacy, as I am sure somebody has pointed out the same thing I am, but he will probably blindly continue to offer his simplistic but wrong assumptions.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:12 pm
okie wrote:
xingu wrote:
Instead of showing your ignorance and being insulting why don't you refute the argument. After all that's what the guy in the video is asking.


His argument is the one that is insulting. To sum it up, garbage in, garbage out. If you fill in the boxes with wrong assumptions, then the boxes do not offer logical conclusions.

His argument is refuted easily. He filled in the boxes with wrong assumptions. He claims nobody has refuted his argument, which is probably another fallacy, as I am sure somebody has pointed out the same thing I am, but he will probably blindly continue to offer his simplistic but wrong assumptions.


Then instead of trashing BB post your arguments against the video; simply saying it's stupid is not an argument.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:50 pm
xingu wrote:
............. post your arguments against the video; simply saying it's stupid is not an argument.


It's beyond stupid - it's inane. Thomas explained the reasons for the hopeless inanity of the video in several posts on the previous page; read them, Xingu, before typing further.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:09 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
You know George its a remarkable fact, that what you agree with is based on solid evidence and science, and what you disagree with must therefore be unscientific nonsense.


That is an accurate portrayal of my expressed attitudes, (though you have omitted reference to things of which I have asserted that no accurate prediction could be scientifically made, thus taking a more or less neutral stance on the matter).

There are, of course, two possibilities here - (1) I am guilty of exactly those things of which I accuse others; or (2) I am right in my objections to popular beliefs.

I don't claim that others should accept my views merely because I studied Fluid Mechanics in grad school, any more than I should accept the findings of others with equal or greater academic credentials who express what I believe to to be seriously flawed analyses, possibly just to gain prominence in what is increasingly a very intense public matter -- one that contemplates requiring resources far out of proportion to the risks presented and wildly out of proportion to other, far greater, risks that go sadly ignored.

I accept that warming has been widely observed in the last few decades and that greenhouse gases are a likely component of the trend.

I also note that the remedies being proposed with such urgency involve the reallocation of a large fraction of the world's resources, and in several important aspects very strangely ignore some rather obvious and effective countermeasures - nuclear power being the obvious example. Moreover the programs so far put forward, with what appears to me to be so much dangerous enthusiasm, fall so far short of a realistic plan (Kyoto is the prime example) as to convince a reasonable observer that the unanticipated side effects of the proposed remedies may well be worse than those of the supposed problem they address.

I'll add that I am also concerned by the apparent implicit belief among many avid environmentalists (and AGW zealots) that humanity is some sort of infestation of an otherwise benign planet, and that the values of the planet (as exclusively understood by them) must necessarily trump those of humanity. There are other real examples of this - the abandonment of DDT so earnestly advocated by readers of Silent Spring has increased the world's population of pelicans and eagles, but significantly decreased that of humans. Mortality due to Malaria in Africa and other tropical regions now far exceeds that due to AIDS and is almost entirely the result of the DDT ban. Similarly European dread of genetically modified plants and the import restrictions they have imposed to suppress them have significantly retarded agricultural productivity in Africa and exacerbated hunger problems there -- despite the fact that these GM plants are widely used elsewhere without adverse effect. In short I am suspicious of both the motives and the zealotry of many self-labelled "environmentalists" and in some cases I have a fundamental dispute with their often unstated basic principles.

Thomas, whose focus is largely economic, has noted accurately that it is generally unwise (i.e. unrealistic) to base public policy on worst case scenarios. In some areas such as national security that may be an arguable proposition, however, I agree with him that it is a good rule. On the matter of AGW, however, we are confronted with zealots whose ultimate defense is always "well if it (their worst case scenario) does happen then all will be lost. Therefore you must do just as I say to prevent that possibility." I find that unreasonable and irrational, particularly in view of the often nonsensical remedies they go on to propose, and the unworkable assumptions they put forward about enforcement measures.

No one with any real understanding of the subject can seriously propose that we can significantly reduce our atmospheric carbon emissions without an organized priority effort to greatly expand our use of nuclear power and do so as a first priority. Despite this what we hear from the AGW zealots is that the problem of disposal of nuclear waste is scientifically unsolved (an untruth), and that we can meed their targets with demand controls, solar and wind power (nonsense).

As a result of all this I conclude that there is a systematic lack of a scientific basis in the propaganda so assiduously put forth by the AGW zealots. I believe I am correct and that a graduate degree is not necessary to make that conclusion.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:15 pm
xingu wrote:


Then instead of trashing BB post your arguments against the video; simply saying it's stupid is not an argument.

Sarcasm is one of my weak points, I admit, but I did not think it would be appropriate to dignify his completely childishly simplistic and unrealistic reasoning with dignified reasoning.

Just one major fallacy of his reasoning is that we can manage the greenhouse gases sufficiently, if we accept the fact that those manmade gases are indeed causing the problem. Two parts to that actually, first being could we manage them if we tried, depending on who "we" are, and secondly, would the so-called "management" that I suspect he is talking about, which I don't know what it entails, would it be significant in light of the scientific picture presented to us? My conclusion is that his scenario is totally ficticious and not even outlined with realistic parameters. Garbage in, garbage out.
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