Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

Foxfyre wrote:

So what was all that about the other day when Thomas (and others? I can't remember) were criticizing the U.S. CAFE standards and thought we ought to hike up our taxes instead?

The EU standards have been introduced quite recently. Not owning a car myself, I didn't know they existed. Judging by Walter's link, they indeed seem to resemble America's CAFE standards -- and I don't like them one bit for it.

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.... I like that formula, though....

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Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So what was all that about the other day when Thomas (and others? I can't remember) were criticizing the U.S. CAFE standards and thought we ought to hike up our taxes instead?

The EU standards have been introduced quite recently. Not owning a car myself, I didn't know they existed. Judging by Walter's link, they indeed seem to resemble America's CAFE standards -- and I don't like them one bit for it.

On second thought, I do like the EU version better. The EU standards classify vehicles into categories, which serve as the basis for a vehicle tax. CAFE standards, by contrast, directly tell manufacturers how fuel efficient their fleets have to be. CAFE (which stands for "Corporate Average Fuel Economy") thus enacts a more meddlesome form of regulation.

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Thomas wrote:

The EU standards have been introduced quite recently.

Clean Air for Europe (CAFE) was launched in March 2001, while the "Euro-grouping" started in the earliest 90's (Euro 2 group was introduced 1996).

Edited: first EU-legislation about car emissions (which later became Euro 1) was in August 1988

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thomas wrote:

The EU standards have been introduced quite recently.

Clean Air for Europe (CAFE) was launched in March 2001, while the "Euro-grouping" started in the earliest 90's (Euro 2 group was introduced 1996).

Edited: first EU-legislation about car emissions (which later became Euro 1) was in August 1988

And when did Germany translate those regulations into tax incentives? The EU said it had to happen until 2005. Was Germany much faster than this? I can't remember our parliament specificially implementing any fuel efficiency regulations.

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Not sure when it happened - but since I always was one norm ahead, I got tax reductions* since I drive Diesel ... which is from early 90's onwards.

* at least in the first year

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Not sure when it happened - but since I always was one norm ahead, I got tax reductions* since I drive Diesel ... which is from early 90's onwards.

* at least in the first year

yeah but you drive at 180+ km/hr everywhere

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Quote:

Ford and General Motors, the two embattled giants of the US car industry, yesterday unveiled plans for environmentally friendly cars to try to maintain their position in an increasingly competitive market.

source: The Independent: US car giants launch green drive

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Thomas wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So what was all that about the other day when Thomas (and others? I can't remember) were criticizing the U.S. CAFE standards and thought we ought to hike up our taxes instead?

The EU standards have been introduced quite recently. Not owning a car myself, I didn't know they existed. Judging by Walter's link, they indeed seem to resemble America's CAFE standards -- and I don't like them one bit for it.

On second thought, I do like the EU version better. The EU standards classify vehicles into categories, which serve as the basis for a vehicle tax. CAFE standards, by contrast, directly tell manufacturers how fuel efficient their fleets have to be. CAFE (which stands for "Corporate Average Fuel Economy") thus enacts a more meddlesome form of regulation.

I guess its all in your perspective. The way I understand it is that U.S. auto manufacturers are not REQUIRED to comply with the CAFE standards but that they pay a penalty (tax) for each mpg that an automobile or light truck produced that doesn't meet the CAFE standards. The tax then of course will be included in the cost of the automobile or truck. The net result is that more fuel efficient cars and trucks are also more economical to buy.

Believe it or not, most of us really like the economy of good gas mileage and we brag about how many MPG our vehicles get. And conversely we all hate paying taxes and really resent what we see as excessive taxes, especially those designed to manipulate our choices and freedoms.

So to be competitive against European and Asian imports, our auto makers have in fact increased fuel efficiency of American cars, even the big heavy ones. When I started driving, 12 mpg was the norm and 16 mpg was considered excellent gas mileage. The big Lincolns, Chryslers, and Cadillacs got about 8 mpg. Now I wouldn't consider buying a car that got less than 30 mpg and look for better results than that. If I was in the market for a big, heavy car or truck, I would expect gas mileage in the 22+ mpg range.

Couple these figures with the fact that the American people hugely approve of the CAFE standards and consider them far less intrusive and oppressive than an unavoidable ongoing tax would be, and you have a prescription for happy campers over here. When the choice is tax the car or tax the gas, they'll approve taxing the car every time. So we do, in the ticket price and each year at registration time.

Now if we could just produce American cars with reputation for better reliability, quality, and people friendly features than the Asians are producing, we would be even happier campers.

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Foxfyre wrote:

So to be competitive against European and Asian imports, our auto makers have in fact increased fuel efficiency of American cars, even the big heavy ones. When I started driving, 12 mpg was the norm and 16 mpg was considered excellent gas mileage. The big Lincolns, Chryslers, and Cadillacs got about 8 mpg. Now I wouldn't consider buying a car that got less than 30 mpg and look for better results than that. If I was in the market for a big, heavy car or truck, I would expect gas mileage in the 22+ mpg range.

From my link given above:

Quote:

In Europe, the two standard measuring cycles for "L/100 km" value are motorway travel at 90 km/h and rush hour city traffic. A reasonably modern European supermini may manage motorway travel at 5 L/100 km (47 mpg US) or 6.5 L/100 km in city traffic (36 mpg US), with carbon dioxide emissions of around 140 g/km.

An average North American mid-size car travels 27 mpg (US) (9 L/100 km) highway, 21 mpg (US) (11 L/100 km) city; a full-size SUV usually travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 16 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway. Pickup trucks vary considerably; whereas a 4 cylinder-engined light pickup can achieve 28 mpg (8 L/100 km), a V8 full-size pickup with extended cabin only travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 15 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway.

The EU CAFE/Euro groups are less about miles per gallon (or l/100 km) but about emissions.

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Walter Hinteler, quoting an informative webpage wrote:

Quote:
An average North American mid-size car travels 27 mpg (US) (9 L/100 km) highway, 21 mpg (US) (11 L/100 km) city; a full-size SUV usually travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 16 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway. Pickup trucks vary considerably; whereas a 4 cylinder-engined light pickup can achieve 28 mpg (8 L/100 km), a V8 full-size pickup with extended cabin only travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 15 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway.

The EU CAFE/Euro groups are less about miles per gallon (or l/100 km) but about emissions.

Also significant is that SUVs are exempt from any CAFE limits at all. (See the CAFE overview by the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration.) But I admit that Foxfyre's point is a good one. If CAFE didn't exempt the vehicles that make up a large share of the problem, the penalty on manufacturers might be made to look a lot like an excise tax.

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Thomas wrote:

Walter Hinteler, quoting an informative webpage wrote:
Quote:
An average North American mid-size car travels 27 mpg (US) (9 L/100 km) highway, 21 mpg (US) (11 L/100 km) city; a full-size SUV usually travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 16 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway. Pickup trucks vary considerably; whereas a 4 cylinder-engined light pickup can achieve 28 mpg (8 L/100 km), a V8 full-size pickup with extended cabin only travels 13 mpg (US) (18 L/100 km) city and 15 mpg (US) (15 L/100 km) highway.

The EU CAFE/Euro groups are less about miles per gallon (or l/100 km) but about emissions.

Also significant is that SUVs are exempt from any CAFE limits at all. (See the CAFE overview by the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration.) But I admit that Foxfyre's point is a good one. If CAFE didn't exempt the vehicles that make up a large share of the problem, the penalty on manufacturers might be made to look a lot like an excise tax.

I didn't know that SUVs are exempt, but even they are getting roughly 25-26 mpg so the efforts to increase fuel efficiency is affecting them too. I think the numbers Walter posted here may not be the 'norm' over here at this time. It certainly is not for newer cars and light trucks.

Here is a site outlining the emissions and CAFE standards I think for several different areas of the world. And diesel engines are presumably included in these. http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/

I know there have been a lot of grumblings over here that we regular folks are doing our best to be good stewards of the environment while the big trucks don't have any standards to follow and belch smoke out of their stacks at will. I think measures are underway to correct some of that maybe.

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Re Diesel: the USA only now starts to move to lower sulphur content - something which is done in the EU since 1989 (Euro-group 1).

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I was trying to edit my last post to say that based on extensive car shopping in the last couple of years, I think Walter's numbers are a bit low. But we also didn't look at everything, so I should not have indicated a sense of certainty about that.

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I recent comprison made by the European automobile clubs [printed in November 2006 in a German "AAA"-magazine] (not online but ...) shows exactly the same figures (so I guess, the author coipied them from that source).

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press release by petro-canada :
"Diesel Fuels

We sell low sulphur diesel fuel for on-road use for those passenger cars, heavy-duty pickups and commercial trucks that have diesel engines. Depending on the geographic location, diesel fuel sold for off-road use such as farm, forestry, mining, rail and marine may be low sulphur diesel fuel or regular sulphur diesel fuel.
All diesel fuel sold by Petro-Canada for on-road use is low sulphur diesel fuel, as required by federal legislation. As of Sept. 1, 2006, all Petro-Canada on-road low sulphur diesel contains less than 15 ppm (parts per million) of sulphur, as required by federal legislation."

LOW SULPHUR DIESEL FUEL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and here is the latest on bio-diesel :

PUT A CHICKEN IN YOUR TANK !

Chicken fat becomes key biodiesel ingredient

By CHRISTOPHER LEONARD

DEXTER, Mo. (AP) ?- Jerry Bagby is typical of the oil men who are prospecting for a fortune in the Midwestern biofuels boom. He's convinced there's oil in these hills ?- and he's found a well that no one else is using.

Bagby and a longtime friend have cobbled together $5 million to build a new biodiesel plant on the lonely croplands outside this southeast Missouri town. They're betting they can hit paydirt by exploiting a generally overlooked natural resource that's abundant in these parts ?- chicken fat.

There's a virtual gusher of the stuff at a nearby Tyson Foods Inc. poultry plant. Currently, the low-quality fat is shipped out of state to be rendered and used as a cheap ingredient in pet food, soap and other products.

Bagby and his partner Harold Williams plan to refine the gooey substance, mix it with soy bean oil and produce about 3 million gallons of biodiesel annually.

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Might well be that this is just an extreme weather phenomen

Bears awake and flowers in bloom. Whatever happened to winter?

Quote:

Most scientists agree that the exceptional weather patterns across America are due to a combination of the El Niño effect - the natural warming of the surface water in the eastern Pacific which happens every three to 10 years - and climate change.

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This comes together with

EU warns of global climate chaos

Quote:

· Report forecasts wars, famine and migration
· Strategy aims for world's first low-carbon economy

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From your link:

EU warns of global climate chaos

· Report forecasts wars, famine and migration
· Strategy aims for world's first low-carbon economy

Just wondering, whats new about wars, famines, and migration, Walter?
After some thought, I wonder if the ranchers in Eastern Colorado will migrate out of there soon, as the record snow recently killed thousands of cattle? Darn weather is getting too cold and snowy there.

This from: http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.html

Temperature Variation From Average:
Mid Troposphere:
Global:
December 2006: +0.07 °C
Northern Hemisphere: +0.29 °C
Southern Hemisphere: -0.15 °C

I notice December wasn't all that blazing hot in the Southern Hemisphere.

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okie wrote:

Just wondering, whats new about wars, famines, and migration, Walter?
After some thought, I wonder if the ranchers in Eastern Colorado will migrate out of there soon, as the record snow recently killed thousands of cattle? Darn weather is getting too cold and snowy there.

I suggest, you read the text of my link again, okie.

(Hint: it's from the European commission who stepped up the EU's campaign to lead the fight against climate change )

Spiegel online: The EU's Energy Revolution

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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

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