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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:07 am
Well you wouldn't expect Mr Cool to be that concerned about global warming now would you?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 09:23 am
hi steve

Took me a few seconds...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 09:25 am
took me ages to thunk it :wink:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 09:37 am
Leonard Cohen once described a conversation with Bob Dylan where Cohen pointed to a favorite Dylan song and inquired how long bob had taken to write it. Dylan said, "Oh, twenty or forty minutes or so" and then Bob asked Cohen how long one of Leonard's songs had taken to complete. Cohen said he that he'd answered "Six months". "But", he added, "I was lying. It took a lot longer than that."
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 09:54 am
hi Bernie, will be thinking of your party on 7th Nov, especially about not being there Sad
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 11:55 am
Though the article is subjective and cites no linkable sources to back up the information, the DDT issue has been discussed from several sources lately.

This, however, is a beautiful illustration of how the majority consensus of scientific opinion can get it wrong, just as it did re global cooling in the 1970's.

September 20, 2006
The Lesson of the DDT Debacle
By Thomas Bray

The environmental left has received some severe blows lately. One is the declining cost of oil, which environmental nannies fear will lead Americans to forget that they have a moral duty to consume less fossil fuel. The other is a decision by the World Health Organization (WHO) to lift its ban on the use of DDT for combating malaria in the Third World.

The latter strikes at the heart of the modern environmental movement, which was spawned in part by Rachel Carson's famous 1962 polemic, "Silent Spring." In lyrical - some might say hysterical - terms, she wrote of the dangers of chemicals like DDT that supposedly threatened to upset the natural balance. This led to a ban on the manufacture and export of DDT, resulting in millions of unneeded deaths in the malarial regions of the world.

The enviros still insist that malaria can be stopped by the widespread use of bed-nets and less harmful chemical substances. In the real world, DDT is still the cheapest, most effective, and easiest to use anti-malaria agent, a critical consideration in impoverished places like Africa, which accounts for about 95 percent of the one million deaths a year from malaria. And if used responsibly, according to a 2005 study in the British medical journal, Lancet, there is no evidence that it poses a threat human beings.

Researchers haven't even been able to show conclusively that DDT is the cause of widely-cited declines in populations of eagles and other animals. There appeared to be a strong correlation, but the type of DDT use being recommended by WHO - indoor spraying to reduce the risk of mosquito bites to sleeping humans - is no threat to nature. All this was known more than three decades ago, but so powerful had the environmental lobby become that rational decision-making was all but impossible.

There is an important lesson here. Policy decisions that aren't based on a cold, hard appreciation of costs and benefits, as well as solid science, cost lives. That's as true of oil policy as it is of DDT policy. The drumbeat these days is about global warming. The science is "settled," we are told. Failure to ban or sharply reduce use of fossil fuels will lead to a global silent spring. The fate of the earth, Al Gore informs us, depends on acting without delay.

That, of course, is exactly what Rachel Carson told us. Just as with the near-extinction of some bird species, natural phenomena are occurring that seem to be consistent with the theory that human activity is artificially heating up the planet. But there could be other explanations as well. There are still wide variations in predictions of just how much the earth is likely to warm, strongly suggesting that the science is anything but settled. And there are some scientists who have expressed doubts about the underlying theory of global warming itself.

Yet the environmental left, no doubt animated by visions of a giant leap forward for Big Government, is eager to clamp controls on energy use. They have allies on the right as well. The new Treasury Secretary, Henry Paulson, recently delivered a speech expressing about "China's severe environmental hazards," in particular its fast-growing consumption of fossil fuel. Paulson's real target may have been no less than George W. Bush, who has called for an end to America's own "oil addiction" but -- fortunately -- hasn't done much about it. Could the administration be preparing to cave in to those who see the answer to global warming as government controls on energy use?

Citing the so-called "precautionary principle," advocates of such controls argue that we must act even before all the facts are in. To delay is to risk catastrophe down the road, they assert. But insofar as the precautionary principle is valid, it might offer a strong reason not to act too quickly. The one thing we know about government, after all, is that it often gets things wrong - as it did with DDT.

The Kyoto Protocal calling for reductions in CO2 emissions to pre-1990 levels would cost hundreds of billions - without actually slowing global warming very much, even its supporters agree. Just imagine what an effort to roll back energy use even more radically would cost. Over time, the loss of income and jobs will mean poorer, meaner, deadlier societies - and a less healthy environment. It would be the DDT tragedy writ large.

Tom Bray writes columns for The Detroit News and RealClearPolitics.com. Email: [email protected]
SOURCE
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 12:53 pm
Tom Bray hasnt a clue.

Why do you think (Bray Foxfyre, all you let it rip slash and burners) Mr Bush talked about America's addiction to oil? Why did he talk about the imperative to reduce dependency on middle eastern oil?

Whats going on? Burning fossil fuels is - from Bush's environmental point of view - more or less ok, but America is hooked on oil, an addict and has to kick the habit?

Anything strange about that to you Mr Bray Ms Foxy Mr/s Slaschenburn?

Unless you can reconcile those two positions...the urgent need to reduce oil dependency, and the relatively complacent attitude towards environmental concerns...you dont have a clue as to whats really going on.

Sorry to sound obtuse and aloof, but sometimes I really do think I understand things better than Mr Bray at least.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 04:21 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
Tom Bray hasnt a clue.

Why do you think (Bray Foxfyre, all you let it rip slash and burners) Mr Bush talked about America's addiction to oil? Why did he talk about the imperative to reduce dependency on middle eastern oil?

Whats going on? Burning fossil fuels is - from Bush's environmental point of view - more or less ok, but America is hooked on oil, an addict and has to kick the habit?

Anything strange about that to you Mr Bray Ms Foxy Mr/s Slaschenburn?

Unless you can reconcile those two positions...the urgent need to reduce oil dependency, and the relatively complacent attitude towards environmental concerns...you dont have a clue as to whats really going on.

Sorry to sound obtuse and aloof, but sometimes I really do think I understand things better than Mr Bray at least.


I sincerely think you missed the point of the article.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:49 pm
Well Fox,
The one thing we can be sure of is Mr Bray often gets it wrong as he does in the piece you posted.

DDT has been pretty extensively covered in several of Gunga's threads with the science discussed that blows holes in Bray's article. DDT has a problem in that it can quickly make misquitos that are resistent to it. The limited use proposed by WHO is a far cry from the widespread use that was banned because of correlations that recent science has supported in direct contradiction to Bray's claim of being inconclusive.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 12:29 am
A cooment from today's The Guardian

Quote:
Comment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The threat is from those who accept climate change, not those who deny it

If the biosphere is ruined it will be done by people who know that emissions must be cut - but refuse to alter the way they live


George Monbiot
Thursday September 21, 2006
The Guardian


You have to pinch yourself. Until now the Sun has denounced environmentalists as "loonies" and "eco beards". Last week it published "photographic proof that climate change is real". In a page that could have come straight from a Greenpeace pamphlet, it laid down 10 "rules" for its readers to follow: "Use public transport when possible; use energy-saving lightbulbs; turn off electric gadgets at the wall; do not use a tumble dryer ... "

Two weeks ago the Economist also recanted. In the past it has asserted that "Mr Bush was right to reject the prohibitively expensive Kyoto pact". It co-published the Copenhagen Consensus papers, which put climate change at the bottom of the list of global priorities. Now, in a special issue devoted to scaring the living daylights out of its readers, it maintains that "the slice of global output that would have to be spent to control emissions is probably ... below 1%". It calls for carbon taxes and an ambitious programme of government spending.
Almost everywhere, climate change denial now looks as stupid and as unacceptable as Holocaust denial. But I'm not celebrating yet. The danger is not that we will stop talking about climate change, or recognising that it presents an existential threat to humankind. The danger is that we will talk ourselves to kingdom come.

If the biosphere is wrecked, it will not be done by those who couldn't give a damn about it, as they now belong to a diminishing minority. It will be destroyed by nice, well-meaning, cosmopolitan people who accept the case for cutting emissions, but who won't change by one iota the way they live. I know people who profess to care deeply about global warming, but who would sooner drink Toilet Duck than get rid of their Agas, patio heaters and plasma TVs, all of which are staggeringly wasteful. A recent brochure published by the Co-operative Bank boasts that its "solar tower" in Manchester "will generate enough electricity every year to make 9 million cups of tea". On the previous page it urges its customers "to live the dream and purchase that perfect holiday home ... With low cost flights now available, jetting off to your home in the sun at the drop of a hat is far more achievable than you think."

Environmentalism has always been characterised as a middle-class concern; while this has often been unfair, there is now an undeniable nexus of class politics and morally superior consumerism. People allow themselves to believe that their impact on the planet is lower than that of the great unwashed because they shop at Waitrose rather than Asda, buy Tomme de Savoie instead of processed cheese slices and take eco-safaris in the Serengeti instead of package holidays in Torremolinos. In reality, carbon emissions are closely related to income: the richer you are, the more likely you are to be wrecking the planet, however much stripped wood and hand-thrown crockery there is in your kitchen.

It doesn't help that politicians, businesses and even climate-change campaigners seek to shield us from the brutal truth of just how much has to change. Last week Friends of the Earth published the report it had commissioned from the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, which laid out the case for a 90% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050. This caused astonishment in the media. But other calculations, using the same sources, show that even this ambitious target is two decades too late. It becomes rather complicated, but please bear with me, for our future rests on these numbers.

The Tyndall Centre says that to prevent the earth from warming by more than two degrees above preindustrial levels, carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere must be stabilised at 450 parts per million or less (they currently stand at 380). But this, as its sources show, is plainly insufficient. The reason is that carbon dioxide (CO2) is not the only greenhouse gas. The others - such as methane, nitrous oxide and hydrofluorocarbons - boost its impacts by around 15%. When you add the concentrations of CO2 and the other greenhouse gases together, you get a figure known as "CO2 equivalent". But the Tyndall Centre uses "CO2" and "CO2 equivalent" interchangeably, permitting an embarrassing scientific mish-mash.

"Concentrations of 450 parts per million CO2 equivalent or lower", it says, provide a "reasonable to high probability of not exceeding 2C". This is true, but the report is not calling for a limit of 450 parts of "CO2 equivalent". It is calling for a limit of 450 parts of CO2, which means at least 500 parts of CO2 equivalent. At this level there is a low to very low probability of keeping the temperature rise below two degrees. So why on earth has this reputable scientific institution muddled the figures?

You can find the answer on page 16 of the report. "As with all client-consultant relationships, boundary conditions were established within which to conduct the analysis ... Friends of the Earth, in conjunction with a consortium of NGOs and with increasing cross-party support from MPs, have been lobbying hard for the introduction of a 'climate change bill' ... [The bill] is founded essentially on a correlation of 2C with 450 parts per million of CO2."

In other words, Friends of the Earth had already set the target before it asked its researchers to find out what the target should be. I suspect that it chose the wrong number because it believed a 90% cut by 2030 would not be politically acceptable.

This echoes the refusal of Sir David King, the government's chief scientist, to call for a target of less than 550 parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere, on the grounds that it would be "politically unrealistic". The message seems to be that the science can go to hell - we will tell people what we think they can bear.

So we all deceive ourselves and deceive each other about the change that needs to take place. The middle classes think they have gone green because they buy organic cotton pyjamas and handmade soaps with bits of leaf in them - though they still heat their conservatories and retain their holiday homes in Croatia. The people who should be confronting them with hard truths balk at the scale of the challenge. And the politicians won't jump until the rest of us do.

On Sunday the Liberal Democrats announced that they are making climate change their top political priority, and on Tuesday they voted to shift taxation from people to pollution. At first sight it looks bold, but then you discover that they have scarcely touched the problem. While total tax receipts in the United Kingdom amount to £350bn a year, they intend to shift just £8bn - or 2.3%.

So the question which now confronts everyone - politicians, campaign groups, scientists, readers of the Guardian as well as the Economist and the Sun - is this: how much reality can you take? Do you really want to stop climate chaos, or do you just want to feel better about yourself?

· George Monbiot's book Heat: How to Stop the Planet Burning is published by Allen Lane next week. He has also launched a website - turnuptheheat.org - exposing false environmental claims made by corporations and celebrities
www.monbiot.com
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 02:15 am
blatham wrote:
mrcool011 wrote:
Global warming is true, but humans arent causing it. Science has proven this.


Welcome, mrcool.

But you'll find, if you read through this thread at all, that the level of discussion is pretty sophisticated. Sentences of the "science has proven..." sort, when they are not attended with data sources we might refer to, aren't very valuable. It's a bit like some fellow in a pub loudly stating that "the moon is hollow...science proved it" and him expecting anyone to grant the sentence credence.


If the moon isn't hollow, where does the man in the moon live? Think about it, it makes sense. It's too dusty and rocky on the surface, I've seen the pictures. I met a guy in a pub, and he explained all this to me.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 02:26 am
So you (or your reference in the pub) really think, the moon is like a ball Shocked
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 03:54 am
monbiot has a website turnuptheheat.org

this is an interesting story of how climate change deniers twist turn and cheat

http://turnuptheheat.org/?page_id=21
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 05:29 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I sincerely think you missed the point of the article.


Maybe I did. What do you think Bray was saying? I only scanned it after the first three words...The Environmental Left....it betrayed the author's bias and prevented me from taking it seriously.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:07 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Why do you think (Bray Foxfyre, all you let it rip slash and burners) Mr Bush talked about America's addiction to oil? Why did he talk about the imperative to reduce dependency on middle eastern oil?

Because voters like this kind of talk, no matter how wrong-headed it is. And as a bonus, it allows Mr. Bush to continue his habit of being wrong all the time.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:23 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I sincerely think you missed the point of the article.


Maybe I did. What do you think Bray was saying? I only scanned it after the first three words...The Environmental Left....it betrayed the author's bias and prevented me from taking it seriously.


I am quite confident that Bray was using the recent WHO change of policy re use of DDT to illustrate how policy based a majority consensus of scientific opinion can a) be quite wrong and b) have catastrophic results, in this case millions of deaths due to malaria.

Now we have a majority consensus of scientific opinion re AGW that could result in policies that are a) be quite wrong and b) have catastrophic results.

Bray used the term "environmental left" because that was the ideology that resulted in a bad policy re DDT and is currently pushing policy re AGW.

Of course Bray's points can and should be challenged, but with facts and logic, and not dismissed with a closed mind on the subject.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:30 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I am quite confident that Bray was using the recent WHO change of policy re use of DDT to illustrate how policy based a majority consensus of scientific opinion can a) be quite wrong and b) have catastrophic results, in this case millions of deaths due to malaria.


When some would read more than just the news as presented by some media, e.g. the original reports/newsltters from the WHO, they would notice that the WHO previously approved DDT for dealing with malaria, but just didn't actively support it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:34 am
Thomas wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Why do you think (Bray Foxfyre, all you let it rip slash and burners) Mr Bush talked about America's addiction to oil? Why did he talk about the imperative to reduce dependency on middle eastern oil?

Because voters like this kind of talk, no matter how wrong-headed it is. And as a bonus, it allows Mr. Bush to continue his habit of being wrong all the time.


President Bush is "wrong all the time"? Now there is a profound statement for our edification.

The President talked about America's 'addiction to oil' precisely in the context in which it should be discussed. We use an abundance of oil to resist embracing alternate forms of energy, and this puts our economy and quality of life subject to unacceptable manipulation by people who may not have our best interests at heart as well as slows R&D that should be happening. He was encouraging us to break out of our comfort zone and complacency and change that situation.

It's sort of precisely what so many of you have been arguing for months and months on this thread. But your hatred for our President is so entrenched that you are unwilling to give him credit for getting it right about anything. It seems to be so much more satisfying for you to see him getting it wrong all the time.

It's almost like an addiction.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:38 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I am quite confident that Bray was using the recent WHO change of policy re use of DDT to illustrate how policy based a majority consensus of scientific opinion can a) be quite wrong and b) have catastrophic results, in this case millions of deaths due to malaria.


When some would read more than just the news as presented by some media, e.g. the original reports/newsltters from the WHO, they would notice that the WHO previously approved DDT for dealing with malaria, but just didn't actively support it.


WHO was not the focus of Bray's comments. He cited a change in WHO policy to illustrate what was the focus of his comments. I think anyone who actually read the article would see that.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:49 am
Foxfyre wrote:
WHO was not the focus of Bray's comments. He cited a change in WHO policy to illustrate what was the focus of his comments. I think anyone who actually read the article would see that.


I didn't intend my response to be a comment on the focus of the article by Bray.

But if you want to read it that way - s'il te plaît.
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