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THE MEANING OF OZ - All you need to know!

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2012 07:53 am
@Bootlace,
Sigh means I think you are full of **** Bootlace if you believe in the tired platitudes you are rolling out. Multiculturalism has worked. Tell me how you want people to act, tell me what they are doing that so distresses you, tell me how great Australia would be without the influence of migrants. Tell me how bad modern Australia is - because I think it is pretty ******* terrific.

I'd love to pull your argument to bits, but you haven't presented one. Do me a favour and read George Megalogenis's 'The Australian Moment' and then tell me what a **** hole we live in.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2012 03:00 pm
@Bootlace,
In 1934 Atatürk wrote a tribute to the ANZACs killed at Gallipoli:

Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives..
you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.
You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace.
Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.

Mustafa Kemel Ataturk - 1934
ANZAC Memorial at Gallipoli, Turkey

Atatürk (Mustafa Kemal):
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/ataturk.asp

Defence of Turkey:
http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/4panels/opt9.html
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2012 04:10 pm
@msolga,
I think both sides respected each other. As Msolga points out. I don't really see a drama. And they certainly handed us our arses on a platter.

Pity such a campaign was ever dreamed up.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2012 05:48 pm
I remember a great Anzac day picnic at Centennial Park with a mate and his turkish wife and extended family. I think of how graciously the Turks provide for the annual memorial at Anzac Cove. Can you imagine us being as gracious if the Japanese wanted to occupy a section of the Rocks once a year to commemorate dead midget submariners? Actually I can imagine that.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2012 11:48 pm
@hingehead,
Yes, I was thinking along the same lines, hinge.

But how gracious, tolerant & comforting Ataturk's words were!
We invaded Turkey, after all. They were defending their own country.

Quote:
April 1915 was not a ‘landing’ but an ‘invasion’. It is, however, a generous quote from a man who recognises that soldiers often simply have to do what they are told and he bears no ill-will against his former enemies. Comparatively little is known, let alone acknowledged, in Australia and New Zealand about the experience of Gallipoli from the point of view of the ordinary Turkish soldier. We have hundreds, probably thousands, of books and articles about the stories of young men from every region of Australia who perished at Gallipoli. But who were the Turks? Where did these men come from within Turkey? What did they see themselves as fighting for? What stories of Gallipoli would emerge from a view of the campaign as seen through the eyes of a Turkish soldier?


Defence of Turkey:
http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/4panels/opt9.html

Surely it's not too much, and we are grown-up enough, to have some sensitivity towards Australian Turks as we celebrate ANZAC Day?
Or at least have the generosity to acknowledge who they were, & what their side of the story was ..... the same as we have been acknowledged by them. Gallipoli is not just a story about us, though many of us can't seem to get beyond blind patriotism.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 12:52 am
@msolga,
In Turkey, the Gallipoli Campaign is known as the Battle of Çanakkale (Turkish: Çanakkale Savaşı)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/G.C._18_March_1915_Gallipoli_Campaign_Article.jpg/442px-G.C._18_March_1915_Gallipoli_Campaign_Article.jpg
Date : 25 April 1915 – 9 January 1916
Location : Gallipoli peninsula, Ottoman Empire
Result : Decisive Ottoman victory



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Anzac%2C_the_landing_1915.jpg
Photograph of painting : Anzac, the landing 1915 by George Lambert (1873-1930), 1920–22 (oil-on-canvas, 190.5 cm by 350.5 cm). The painting depicts the Australian soldiers of the covering force (3rd Infantry Brigade) climbing the seaward slope of Plugge's Plateau which overlooks the northern end of en:ANZAC CoveAnzac Cove. The view is to the north, towards the main range. The yellow pinnacle is "The Sphinx" and beyond is Walker's Ridge which leads to Russell's Top. The white bag that each soldier is carrying contains two days of rations which were issued specially for the landing.
Dated between 1920 and 1922 (original painting)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign
0 Replies
 
Bootlace
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 01:01 am
@hingehead,
Quote:

@Bootlace,
Sigh means I think you are full of **** Bootlace if you believe in the tired platitudes you are rolling out.
Multiculturalism has worked. Tell me how you want people to act, tell me what they are doing that so
distresses you, tell me how great Australia would be without the influence of migrants.
Tell me how bad modern Australia is - because I think it is pretty ******* terrific.

I'd love to pull your argument to bits, but you haven't presented one.
Do me a favour and read George Megalogenis's 'The Australian Moment'
and then tell me what a **** hole we live in.



"SIGH" says all that ? WOW !

I can only conclude that you have a total lack of grasp of the essential elements of national cohesion.
You really don't understand the difference between multiculturalism and assimilation.
Multiculturalism leads to seperate and distinctive sub-communities, which is a direct opposite
of assimilation.
Assimilation is where people learn the host nation's language, history, and culture, and blend
in while adding some of their own culture.

What some of Europe's leaders had to say ..
Quote:

David Cameron, the British prime minister, said the doctrine of state multiculturalism had encouraged
segregation:
"We have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives apart from each other and the mainstream.
We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong."

In October 2010, Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, announced that
the multicultural society had failed:
"Of course the tendency had been to say 'let's accept the multicultural
concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each
other'. But this concept has failed, and failed utterly."
Bootlace
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 01:03 am
@msolga,
Quote:

@Bootlace,
In 1934 Atatürk wrote a tribute to the ANZACs killed at Gallipoli:

Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives..
you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.
You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace.
Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.

Mustafa Kemel Ataturk - 1934
ANZAC Memorial at Gallipoli, Turkey


Yes msolga, I am familiar with the words of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

I can only imagine the comfort that those words must have given the families
of our fallen soldiers. For a man to say that about soldiers who invaded his country
speaks volumes about his compassion and humanity.
To this day, those words are not lost on Australians.
0 Replies
 
Bootlace
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 01:09 am
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:

I think both sides respected each other. As Msolga points out. I don't really see a drama. And they certainly handed us our arses on a platter.

Pity such a campaign was ever dreamed up.


Dreamed up by none other than Winston Churchill.

I can picture him saying, " We will defend this beach to the last Australian and New Zealander "
Bootlace
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 01:20 am
@msolga,
Quote:

Surely it's not too much, and we are grown-up enough, to have some sensitivity towards Australian Turks as we celebrate ANZAC Day?
Or at least have the generosity to acknowledge who they were, & what their side of the story was ..... the same as we have been acknowledged by them. Gallipoli is not just a story about us, though many of us can't seem to get beyond blind patriotism.

Honestly msolga, I have never seen any animosity on insensitivity shown to
Turkish people or any other nationality for that matter, that were our enemies in times past.
What I see is the is the disbelief of the waste of human lives and destruction on all sides.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 01:21 am
@Bootlace,
I'm not sure why you're arguing about multiculturalism, when the original article you posted was about ANZAC Day. I though the thrust of the report was a recommendation that we (Australians) should demonstrate more "cultural sensitivity" when celebrating ANZAC Day.
I think that's fair enough.
Do you agree?
I don't get how you jumped from that to arguing against multiculturalism.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 03:15 am
@Bootlace,
You define multiculturalism as isolationist hypersensitive bubbles of ethnicity - I don't. And I don't see in Australia your definition being carried out.

Your definition of assimilation is also misconstrued for your own purposes, whatever they might be. Assimilation means enforced conformity with defined norms.

Australia has found a middle way based on tolerance and rule of law. You can quote politically-driven commentaries on perceptions of overseas failures as much as you like, England is not Australia, nor is Germany - we've always been a nation of migrants, those countries haven't (and in both a fascist undercurrent surfaces in troubled times - unlike Australia)

Can I apologise for being so sweary? You didn't really deserve it. Sorry.

I'm curious how old you are - if you have any sort of memory you'd know Australia's history of initial intolerance to new ethnic intakes that we get over when we realise they are people too.

If you think Oz multiculturalism has failed because of an article about Anzac day celebrations and ethnic sensitivities you are a chicken little of the highest order. Surely there is something other than this causing you to read the death warrant of multiculturalism. Share it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 03:24 am
@eurocelticyankee,
Just a brief interruption.
This is for eurocelticyankee.

Jim Stynes' funeral was today & it brought Melbourne's CBD to a standstill.

Thought you'd like to see these reports.

Thousands gather to farewell Stynes:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-27/thousands-gather-to-farewell-stynes/3914220

'All a bad dream': widow farewells Jim Stynes at emotional Melbourne funeral:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/all-a-bad-dream-widow-farewells-jim-stynes-at-emotional-melbourne-funeral-20120327-1vvf1.html
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 05:43 am
@hingehead,
England has been a country of immigrants, going all the way back to the Celts.
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 06:28 am
@Bootlace,
Quote:
Dreamed up by none other than Winston Churchill.
Churchill was the clown who dreamed up Gallipoli in WW1 and Italy in WW2 as the soft under belly of Europe both times. He also kidnapped the Aust 9th Div and tried to take it to India against the orders of the Oz government, having it sail twice as far within Japanese submarine range as it should have if it only had to sail directly to Oz.

He also approved of fire bombing Dresden for revenge, and wanted to shoot every Nazi without trial.

Great man.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 06:37 am
@izzythepush,
True enough izzy, but for much of your more recent history (post Norman say, or at least House of Tudor) England had been something of a cultural monobloc - not withstanding expatriates from the far reaches of the empire resettling in the motherland (not to mention the Irish and the Scots) - it wasn't until the 50s that migration really kicked in - with large influxes of West Indians, eventually followed by South Asians.

Australia has a very short history and has always had a large influx of migrants - weighted towards ex-Englanders until world war II.

There some very interesting cultural historical patterns about not only our attitudes to new ethnic groups but also the behavious of successive generations of original migrants. Children of migrants perform much better at school than the general population, but their children settle back into normal performance. Every couple of decades we tag a particular group as 'social security bludgers' apparently it was the greeks in the 60s - the polynesians more recently.

We thought the italians bought the mafia, the vietnamese/chinese bought the triads round and round it goes until our panic runs out of steam and we get a sort of non-enforced assimilation that is tolerant, or even celebratory of our cultural differences. I'm glad my life has included Macedonian weddings, polynesian hungis, Fijian kava ceremonies, yorkshire pud and sauerkraut.

I don't get the fear for the survival of Australian culture - truth be told I don't even know what Australian culture is - people will say it's a fair go, sticking up for the underdog, egalitarianism 0r looking after your mates - but none of those are uniquely Australian however much some of seem to think they are.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 06:48 am
I am feeling like I need more than I need to know today. Looked at the first 200 photos from a friend's trip to Australia. hundreds and hundreds more to come Shocked
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 06:48 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
I don't get the fear for the survival of Australian culture - truth be told I don't even know what Australian culture is - people will say it's a fair go, sticking up for the underdog, egalitarianism 0r looking after your mates - but none of those are uniquely Australian however much some of seem to think they are.
They are not uniquely Australian but emphasising them is not all that common in other countries.

Do you really think there are no examples in history of a culture being swamped? Really ?

The Italians did bring the Mafia, the Chinese did bring the Triad...how do you think those organisations came here ? By telephone ? E-mail ?

Quote:
I'm glad my life has included Macedonian weddings, polynesian hungis, Fijian kava ceremonies, yorkshire pud and sauerkraut.
Are any of those cultures under threat from large scale immigration?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 06:51 am
@ehBeth,
Lucky you, ehBeth!
Nothing like viewing lots of someone else's travel photographs! Wink
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2012 09:52 am
@hingehead,
We had a lot of Jews come over in the 19th Century, fleeing various pogroms.
 

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