"The Christians I Know"

Can we get to Snood's question now?

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Piffka: you honor me. Thank you. JN

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I didn't realize there was a question. What was it?

Joe, the honor is mine. Thanks for being so eloquent. You floored me with that image of heading towards heaven on the way to lunch. I wanted other people to enjoy it, too, and later I'll add it to my profile's collection of favorite sayings. We can't let these great thoughts get lost!

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snood wrote:

Merry Andrew wrote:
Great reminiscence, Joe. To me, one of the most horrible phrases is "the fear of God" as in "I put the fear of God into him" or "We must teach him to fear God." There is something wrong with a person who fears God and even freely admits it. Doing something that is right out of a fear of retribution is meaningless and cowardly.

Oh, I don't think the fear of God is necessarily as negative a thing as you make it sound. But to have a discussion about that, we'd have to be on the same side of the street about whether or not there even is an Almighty, no?

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Thanks for redirecting us, Joe. Hey, I think what I was getting at is that the "fear of the Lord" almost definitely will carry different connotations, depending on whether someone was a believer, or a heathen (just kidding) - nonbeliever.

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Snood, you're probably right. I was thinking of the "fear of God" expression in the mouth of a believer, whose concept of a divinity is something to be feared. In that case, in my view, that beiever subscribes to some bad beliefs.

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But, in my opinion, your judgement of what "fear of the lord" means to a believer is moot, because that "fear" is different standing in his shoes.

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I was a believer and I am now a heathen. Perhaps I can help with the translation.

Fearing God was an important theme in my religious community.

The connotation was one of standing in awe of God's incredible power. It expressed a very deep religious emotion. It is a feeling of reverence and worship and a love for God.

"Fear of God", in Christian theology, is a superlative form of reverence.

The concept is being poorly treated in this discussion. It has very little to do with fear of divine retribution.

Snood, I think you should be a bit more patient expressing this. People here are certainly capable of understanding ideas that are outside of their specific cultural experience.

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I totally disagree. It has everything to do with divine retribution. I think your religious community may have used that tack to try to justify the contradictions of the Bible. Love and Fear are are not the same. They are mutually exclusive feelings.

In this standard Catholic prayer, "dread in any way to displease him" is how Fear of the Lord is described.

Quote:

PRAYER FOR THE SEVEN GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

O Lord Jesus Christ Who, before ascending into heaven did promise to send the Holy Spirit to finish Your work in the souls of Your Apostles and Disciples, deign to grant the same Holy Spirit to me that He may perfect in my soul, the work of Your grace and Your love. Grant me the Spirit of Wisdom that I may despise the perishable things of this world and aspire only after the things that are eternal, the Spirit of Understanding to enlighten my mind with the light of Your divine truth, the Spirit of Counsel that I may ever choose the surest way of pleasing God and gaining heaven, the Spirit of Fortitude that I may bear my cross with You and that I may overcome with courage all the obstacles that oppose my salvation, the Spirit of Knowledge that I may know God and know myself and grow perfect in the science of the Saints, the Spirit of Piety that I may find the service of God sweet and amiable, and the Spirit of Fear that I may be filled with a loving reverence towards God and may dread in any way to displease Him. Mark me, dear Lord with the sign of Your true disciples, and animate me in all things with Your Spirit. Amen.

(To be recited daily during the Novena)

The seven gifts are part of Thomas Aquinas's burden laid on all Catholics. If you are in fear of the Lord, you do what he wishes... if not, you are cursed. It is pretty simple. The logic needed to assimilate the loving/fearing aspect for Christians is interesting, but the mental gyrations are huge and clearly don't make sense. Over the years the dogma has become fairly entrenched.

But if this word were meant to be "awe" or "reverence," then why aren't those the words used in the translations? I think it is OK and honest to admit that the God of the Bible is one scary entity, smoting this nation for something, drowning these others, turning some into salt, trying to trick his creatures and threatening often.

Here from the very short book of Zephaniah, in the last chapter, chapter 3:

Quote:

6: I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
7: I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.
8: Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

It is awesome and extremely frightening.

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Love and fear are not mutually exclusive. As a child, I both loved and feared my dad.

MHO, for what it's worth.

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e_brown wrote:

Quote:

Snood, I think you should be a bit more patient expressing this. People here are certainly capable of understanding ideas that are outside of their specific cultural experience.

Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of understanding"

...see the dilemma?

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Nice. So, if I don't already fear the Lord, I can't have any understanding of all those tidings of comfort and joy? And a relationship with the Lord must start with fear?

This is something you recommend to people?

Do you see the dilemma?

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I didn't write the Book of Proverbs, so no, it's not my suggestion.

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(Gee, I was only trying to help.)

In my religious experience, fear of God had a much deeper meaning that what you all are expressing.

This phrase, for me, conjured up the emotion I still get when I lie on my back in a dark place, look up at the stars and contemplate how small I am. It is humility and awe and love.

There is no contradiction feeling a deep sense of security with someone who is infinitely more powerful then you (binnyboy already talked about childern feeling this for their parents). If you recognize God a loving and infinitely powerful, the feeling is one of deep awe but a knowledge that you will be cared for.

I think the Bible supports this view (many Psalms evoke this feeling). My understanding was that you did what was right out of love and reverence, not fear of punishment.

This, im my view, is one of the best things about Christianity.

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I'm trying to be helpful, too, eBrown, I really am. I even offer a more resilient metaphor for the connection between love and fear, our relationship with the ocean. Most Christians will back away from that, however, because it smacks of Naturalism. I will argue with a child's combination of love and fear of his father. That evolves with age. I doubt that binnyboy still fears his father, at least I hope not. We try not to instill that kind of fear in our children anymore.

But, imo, hopping from the Old Testament to the New is full of dilemma.

There are many laws of the old covenant that we would rightly draw back from. The New T. is a description of the new covenant, despite some of the ragings of Paul & John the Divine. To me, looking to the law of the old is folly and it says so, right there in Acts of the Apostles.

Quote:

15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

And the messenger who comes to Mary says "Fear not, for I bring you tidings of great joy." That should be (imo) the dominant theme of the NT and should be the proclamations of Christians. Why isn't it?

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Quote:

We try not to instill that kind of fear in our children anymore.

I hope you're not trying to include me in that we. My dad did a good job, and my brother has taken the road you suggest to an end I do not envy.

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binnyboy wrote:

Quote:
We try not to instill that kind of fear in our children anymore.

I hope you're not trying to include me in that we. My dad did a good job, and my brother has taken the road you suggest to an end I do not envy.

Nope, that was a statement on generally accepted theories of raising children. Very Happy

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e_brown, don't take offense - I don't doubt your intentions. I was simply citing Proverbs 1:7 to illustrate the problem that seems to me intrinsic in the statement "Nonbelievers can understand the fear of the lord spoken of by believers".

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You meant can't right? Effectively shielding off any discussion, cool.

Must be fearful, that Lord.

Joe

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