"The Christians I Know"

...and I guess you have no idea of my comfort level at any time - including while I wrote that.

Verse 9
Holding a cup and overfilling it
Cannot be as good as stopping short
Pounding a blade and sharpening it
Cannot be kept for long
Gold and jade fill up the room
No one is able to protect them
Wealth and position bring arrogance
And leave upon oneself disasters

When achievement is completed, fame attained, withdraw oneself
This is the Tao of Heaven

Once upon a time, a man with a certain military bearing approached the Zen master Hakuin and asked: "Master, do Heaven and Hell actually exist?"

The master wanted to answer in the affirmative, but knew that this would give the man a false impression. In all likelihood the man operated under the mundane paradigm that Heaven and Hell exist as places for souls in the afterlife. The master knew what he must do to break through that false preconception.

"What is your occupation?" He asked.

"I'm a general." This explained the military bearing about him.

The master burst out laughing. "What idiot would ask you to command an army? You look more like a butcher to me!"

This enraged the general. With a roar he drew his sword. He could cut down this defenseless old man in an instant.

"Here lie the gates of Hell," said the master. These simple words stopped the powerful general dead in his tracks.

Realization flooded in. The general sudden understood that the master had risked his life in order to teach him a great truth in the most effective way imaginable.

"Forgive me, master, for what I was able to do." He felt all at once gratitude, amazement, and shame.

"Here lie the gates of Heaven," said the master.

Amazingly, Snood, I'm not trying to offend you, however prickly you might be. I am comfortable in my spiritual beliefs and willing to discuss them openly and reasonably.

From what I've seen (and I've seen a lot), Christianity is an exclusionary religion based on the premise that there are important people who get to go to heaven and then there are all the rest. Where's the humility in that?

You introduced at the beginning of this thread a nice description of good, open-minded, kind-hearted people. But then you spoil it by saying that nobody else is nearly so humble. Do you remember the Fruits of the Spirit? Is pride among them?

Sadly, Christianity is based on Judaism which is one of the most exclusive religions there is... strictly for God's Chosen People. He didn't choose the Navajo. He didn't choose the Picts. He didn't even choose the Italians. He chose a small tribe in the Middle East... and the Christians who've come after also feel that they are chosen. Where is the humility in that?

In fact, there is little humility in the Christian churches I've been in, but there is a lot of hubris. There is a lot of judgemental behavior. There is a lot of separation between who is "in" and who is "out."

Daoists, the belief system I mentioned, have a tiny sacred text. It is simply written and throughout the 81 verses it calls on the people to be humble, expressing again and again that only through humility can they find greatness.

THAT is why I question you when you say that anyone who isn't of your belief structure isn't humble enough.

Wonderful post, Piffka.

Some among us stagger daily through the gates of hell.
Some walk the path of heaven on the way to lunch.
Some people live on a knife's edge, but they are comfortable.
Some on a broad plain filled with fruit trees and wild birds,
and run for their lives at every twig snap.

Where is the guide to sit before me and my sword?
Ah.
I see the reflection on his eyes on my blade.


Joe

Snood, you refuse to stand by the implications of what you post and deny that you believe it. I have to ask, "Has the rooster crowed yet?"

Tao does not translate to God. One does not pray to the Tao and ask for forgiveness, help or praise. Can that be a theistic belief?

Similarly, atheism is not synonymous with irreligion. There are religious belief systems, including much of Buddhism, Taoism, and Unitarian Universalism, which do not require theistic belief.

I've known many decent, reasonable Christians like the ones mentioned in the article.

My late Mom was one...I have brother who is one...and several cousins.

I love 'em all.

The are reasonable enough not to come on-line to an Internet Forum and discuss their religion. They realize that if they did...they would encounter people who feel very strongly that religion is a net negative for society and that many "religious" people are nothing but hypocrites....

And although I've never talked with them about this...they probably would think it every bit as inappropriate as I do for people to do that...and then get upset because people tell them the truth about how they feel.

I suspect they would understand that the people who have very negative feelings about religion and who share their feelings in that regard...

...are not necessarily doing it to be nasty or to hurt people...

...but rather are simply sharing very strongly felt considerations about the issue.

If only there were more Christians like them.

I hope I shared my feelings about the subject of this thread in a reasonable, courteous way.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

I've known many decent, reasonable Christians like the ones mentioned in the article.

My late Mom was one...I have brother who is one...and several cousins.

I love 'em all.

The are reasonable enough not to come on-line to an Internet Forum and discuss their religion. They realize that if they did...they would encounter people who feel very strongly that religion is a net negative for society and that many "religious" people are nothing but hypocrites....

That goes double for people like you, who go out of their way to bring up reasons to blast believers, whether its on the subject, or not.

Your implication is that those who talk about their beliefs here are less than those who do not

Quote:

And although I've never talked with them about this...they probably would think it every bit as inappropriate as I do for people to do that...and then get upset because people tell them the truth about how they feel.

What color is the sky in your world? You are 99% of the instigation of the conflicts here, and you manage to twist it so that you're somehow defending some weird honor. People can hardly discuss belief in anything except Frank apisa, and you're up their ass with your worn out "you're just guessing" line.

Quote:

I suspect they would understand that the people who have very negative feelings about religion and who share their feelings in that regard...

...are not necessarily doing it to be nasty or to hurt people...

...but rather are simply sharing very strongly felt considerations about the issue.

I "suspect" they'd rather speak for themselves, but you have a penchant for trying to speak for others, whether you know what the hell you speak of, or not.

Quote:

If only there were more Christians like them.

You're a real piece of work - you want to judge the Christians as to which ones are good and bad, AND you want to put down the entire religion, as well. Who the hell do you think you are, gramps?

Quote:

I hope I shared my feelings about the subject of this thread in a reasonable, courteous way.

You wouldn't know reason if it bit you on the heiny. And you probably had to look up the word "courteous".

Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

[Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Snood, there is a man, an evangelical, who was on TV yesterday promoting his book The Politics of God. He made an interesting case, I thought, that if Jesus were here, he would not be interested in getting rid of the capital-gains tax, revenge for 9/11 and some of the other shaky goals of the supposedly God-chosen leadership of this country.

He pointed to the parables of Matthew 25 and how they had changed his life. They are a simple blueprint for the goals of Christians -- the elimination of poverty and the protection of creation done without posturing or speculation as to who enters heaven and when.

I applaud the efforts that Christians make towards fulfilling this plan.

talent
1292, "inclination, disposition, will, desire," from O.Fr. talent, from M.L. talenta, pl. of talentum "inclination, leaning, will, desire" (1098), in classical L. "balance, weight, sum of money," from Gk. talanton "balance, weight, sum," from PIE *tel-, *tol- "to bear, carry" (see extol). Originally an ancient unit of weight or money (varying greatly and attested in O.E. as talente), the M.L. and common Romanic sense developed from fig. use of the word in the sense of "money." Meaning "special natural ability, aptitude," developed c.1430, from the parable of the talents in Matt. xxv:14-30.