1
   

US 'kidnap' probed by Germans

 
 
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 04:34 pm
Quote:
US 'kidnap' probed by Germans

AP in Berlin
Saturday January 15, 2005
The Guardian

German prosecutors are in contact with authorities in several countries as they investigate a Lebanese-born German man's claim that he was kidnapped in the Balkans and taken to a US prison in Afghanistan.
Khaled al-Masri, 41, who has lived in Germany for 20 years, 10 as a citizen, approached the German authorities with his allegations.

Al-Masri says he was taken off a bus travelling from Germany on the Macedonian border with Serbia on New Year's Eve 2003, when he had his passport confiscated. There, he said, he was accused of being a terrorist by three men dressed in civilian clothes but carrying pistols.

Weeks later, he said, he was turned over to officials he believed were from the United States, who flew him to a prison in Afghanistan - where he claims he was shackled, beaten, injected with drugs and questioned persistently about his alleged links with al-Qaida.

"We are in contact with every conceivable country," said Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld, a spokesman for the prosecutors. However, he refused to provide any further details, citing the ongoing investigation.
Source
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,090 • Replies: 24
No top replies

 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 04:37 pm
Quote:
US Said to Regret Kidnapping of German

The United States has reportedly expressed regret to Germany over the kidnapping of a German citizen of Lebanese origin. The man claims he was mistakenly held prisoner for months as a terrorism suspect.

According to Monday's edition of Der Spiegel newsmagazine, Washington has used unofficial channels to apologize to Berlin for kidnapping Khaled el-Masri. The 41-year-old German citizen says he was seized at the Serbian border with Macedonia in December 2003 and detained for five months at a prison in Afghanistan.

In an apparent case of mistaken identity, the Lebanese-born man was taken for an al Qaeda operative wanted by the United States for his connections to the suicide bombers who carried out the September 11 attacks in 2001. Der Spiegel quoted sources close to the German government as saying the case was deemed "highly sensitive" by officials in Berlin, who fear it could damage relations with Washington.

German prosecutors have opened an investigation into the matter and have said they are taking el-Masri's claims "extremely seriously" after they managed to corroborate his story up until the moment of his alleged arrest at Serbian-Macedonian border.

El-Masri, who lives in the Bavaria city Ulm, claims to have been arrested by border police as he was traveling on a tourist bus to the Macedonian capital Skopje.

He says he was handed over to officials whom he thought were Americans, who flew him to Afghanistan, where he was shackled, beaten, injected with drugs and questioned about his alleged ties to the Al-Qaeda network.


Guilty until proven innocent?


"They asked a lot of questions - if I have relations with al Qaeda, al Haramain, the Islamic Brotherhood," el-Masri said in a recent interview with the New York Times. "I kept saying no, but they did not believe me."

He was released only five months later without charge, he says. Set free near the border in northern Albania, by the time el-Masri made his way back to Germany, his wife and children had gone to live with her mother in Lebanon.

"I feared the worst - I feared something happened to my family," he said.

Why a German citizen on vacation would be abducted by US authorities remains unclear. However, the similarly spelled name Khalid al-Masri is linked to a man with ties to Mohamed Atta -- one of the September 11 terrorist who lived for several years in the northern German city Hamburg.

For the remainder of the inquiry, prosecutor Martin Hofmann said he had asked for the cooperation of the US, Macedonian and Afghan authorities.

"It is an unusual case," Hofmann said. "The political dimension is huge. Under German law, we can charge a person with kidnapping, but not a country. Countries cannot kidnap people."

DW Staff (mry)
Source
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 08:11 pm
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:45 pm
This sounds more than a little familiar. There's a Canadian case, sort of in the same vein.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:49 pm
TORONTO (CP) - Syrian-born Canadian Maher Arar has been chosen as Time magazine's Canadian Newsmaker of the Year.

Arar, who was born in Syria but has dual citizenship, was detained in New York in September 2002 on suspicion of involvement in Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist network.

U.S. authorities then deported the telecommunications engineer to Syria.

Arar, 35, says he was tortured by Syrian officials in a stark prison cell before being released last year. He denies any involvement in terrorism.

Earlier this year, Arar pushed for and got a public inquiry into his case.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/12/19/790206-cp.html
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 10:29 pm
I wonder why we hear about these cases, but nothing ever seems to come of it. The story just dies. Why is that?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 02:15 am
Actually, I wonder, why you think that the story just dies.

Of course, if you mean, why US-Americans don't follow it ...

Besides, your answer is given in the quote above:
Quote:
[German prosecutor]"Under German law, we can charge a person with kidnapping, but not a country. Countries cannot kidnap people."
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 07:58 am
I know Walter, it doesn't die around the world. And I appreciate that. But German's can't vote in U.S. elections. The fact that Americans don't see it. The obsession Americans have for the fast, sensational and easy..... Fox. That's what I'm pissin about.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 05:22 pm
Gosh !

Imagine a Lebanese born German citizen who is travelling near the Macedonian - Serb border being suspected of complicity with terrorism ! How incredible !!

Tourism is of course the obvious and only reasonable explanation for his presence there. Only a fool would think otherwise.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 05:27 pm
being handed over to Americans.

Yup, that's normal.

The Arar case has had some interesting political effects here. If the U.S. thought Canadian intelligence services weren't co-operating before, they now know the level of co-operation can be even less.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 05:33 pm
Would you like to put any bets on when we will really allow import of Canadian cattle, or when we will relax the restrictions on soft lumber imports?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 05:38 pm
No, I wouldn't.

I see the split between Canada and the U.S. becoming wider with each of these cases. And as I believe you already know, many Canadian economists are not particularly stressed by that. Growth in other markets is faster than it is with the U.S. <shrug> People, countries do what they have to.

While I think there would be benefit to both sides to re-establish a more congenial relationship, it doesn't seem to be on anyone's political agenda. Or at least that of anyone with any political clout.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 05:47 pm
I generally agree with that. More or less the same vis a vis the U.S. and 'Old Europe'. Steady drift and not much concern, or sense of loss, on either side. For us this may represent a return to pre WWI viewpoints - perhaps not entirely bad..

A significant new alignment of powers could well be a result of all this. I wonder what will unfold.

The trade statistics between the U.S. and Canada do sugest a large problem for Canada, which, without the United States, is a large net importer.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 06:05 pm
As I noted above, georgeob, many of the economists have been saying they don't think a decrease in exports to the U.S. would be of significant concern. Growth in other markets is where it's at, and has been for some years now.

The most outrageous (to my ear) was one of the more conservative commentators on the radio saying that as the U.S. was spending itself into second world status, it was probably to our advantage to have fewer economic ties. That sounds completely wrong to me, but I only took a few years of economics.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2005 06:31 pm
I have always felt that the thought processes behind the economics courses I took and the stuff I have read in a few earnest attempts since then was a bit like a ride on a carousel - one could get on anywhere, ride for a while, and get off in the same place.

You can find the mutual trade statistics on many web sites. Canada's trade with the U.S. is a very large fraction of the total and comprises all of the export surplus. It would take a great deal of growth to overcome a significant loss there. I don't claim to know the temporal trends.

I think too much has been made of the historical "affections" that once prevailed. We chased our Tories to Canada during the Revolutionary war and made an inept attempt at an invasion during the 1812 war with Britain. After our Civil War a wayward group of Irish veterans, the "Fenians" also made a misguided effort at invading Canada. Beginning in WWI we found ourselves engaged in a common struggle with some common enemies. All that is over now. Things can go back to normal.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2005 11:46 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Gosh !

Imagine a Lebanese born German citizen who is travelling near the Macedonian - Serb border being suspected of complicity with terrorism ! How incredible !!

Tourism is of course the obvious and only reasonable explanation for his presence there. Only a fool would think otherwise.


That's right george, what's the American government to do? You mean anyone expected us to do anything other than this?:

Quote:
He says he was handed over to officials whom he thought were Americans, who flew him to Afghanistan, where he was shackled, beaten, injected with drugs and questioned about his alleged ties to the Al-Qaeda network.


It's the only reasonable response anyone could fairly expect. But I have this little tickling idea that maybe they could have done their homework first, identify the man before they put him in shackles, beat him up and injected him with drugs for five months. Really george, sometimes you get carried away.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2005 11:55 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Gosh !

Imagine a Lebanese born German citizen who is travelling near the Macedonian - Serb border being suspected of complicity with terrorism ! How incredible !!

Tourism is of course the obvious and only reasonable explanation for his presence there. Only a fool would think otherwise.


Lola already asked questions about this.

But may I asked additionally, what you think a bus-load of people in tourist bus are normally doing? It's the main transit rout from North-/Middle-/West-Europe to e.g. Greece, Turkey, Israel, Iran ... Most (of not all) German tourist busses are taking that way. (Including all the 'Touring-Eurolines', which are scheduled public-transport busses.)

Another question of course is: do you think it is normal that members of US-agencies kidnap people in foreign countries?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2005 11:59 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I have always felt that the thought processes behind the economics courses I took and the stuff I have read in a few earnest attempts since then was a bit like a ride on a carousel - one could get on anywhere, ride for a while, and get off in the same place.

You can find the mutual trade statistics on many web sites. Canada's trade with the U.S. is a very large fraction of the total and comprises all of the export surplus. It would take a great deal of growth to overcome a significant loss there. I don't claim to know the temporal trends.

I think too much has been made of the historical "affections" that once prevailed. We chased our Tories to Canada during the Revolutionary war and made an inept attempt at an invasion during the 1812 war with Britain. After our Civil War a wayward group of Irish veterans, the "Fenians" also made a misguided effort at invading Canada. Beginning in WWI we found ourselves engaged in a common struggle with some common enemies. All that is over now. Things can go back to normal.


goerge is a war-mongering naughty man and if I didn't like him so much, I'd use the word arrogant.......but well, I do like him.........but really george you can be so arrogant. Our country is not profited at all, IMO by our behavior regarding other countries. We've been behaving like a five year old Kindergartner from a large Mafia family.

"If you don't do it my way, I'm gonna to take my toys and go home!" Right......good policy. Sound thinking. Sure. If you ask me, we've got our fanny in the breeze and we're too stupid to know it. Ever seen Good Fellas?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2005 01:18 pm
I am not defending the U.S. government on the kidnapping story so much as I am suggesting that there is very likely much more to this story than has been included in the reports Walter has pasted here. I do have some experience a bit relevant to matters like this, and I am strongly suspicious that there is a good deal of significant information not yet available to us.

With respect to Canada, I was merely pointing out that the cooling in our mutual relations may well be nothing more than a return to the normal state after a few decades in which we were active allies in wars against common foes.

Am I arrogant? Or perhaps just a bit weary of Canadian whining.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2005 01:30 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I do have some experience a bit relevant to matters like this, ...


As do I ...

georgeob1 wrote:
...and I am strongly suspicious that there is a good deal of significant information not yet available to us.



... and after questioning some usually well informed sources, I am strongly suspicious that this was just another superficially deal of some US agencies. :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » US 'kidnap' probed by Germans
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/03/2024 at 11:30:18