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Tue 11 Jan, 2005 03:47 pm
I hear, and read alot of people who say "god" has say: given us enough food to eat, but weve squandered it or hoarded it as if we are fundementally flawed in some way, a way that makes us greedy, or destructive or short-sighted or gluttenous.
For me this seems to be a ridiculous view. Why are we anymore greedy, or destructive or short-sighted or gluttenous than a gorrilla, or a tiger, or a pelican or any other animal on the planet? The thing is, we are not. We are not any more of these things than those animals are.
It is the way we live, in a culture(im talking about everyone who lives in a settled way, and lives totally off food humanly grown). We as a culture feel that the world was wild before we came, and we came to tame it. We as a culture believe that it is our job, nay, our duty to conquer the world, and bring it to order.
It is because we think we are the, epitome, the result, the pupose of the universe, the galaxy and the earth. We beleive we are the end result, the cumulation of everything and because of that, we act in ways humans never would
Now some people might be like we are humans? Yes we are, but we are not humanity. We are not the way humanity is meant to live, that is to say there is "No one right way to live!" In saying that, we as a culture feel we are living the right way, and nay, the only way a human should live.
This is why people need prophets, because if the "one right way to live" does not suit them entirely, they need to be told how to live. Prophets tell people how to live, and in doing so only contribute to the collective unconciousness of our culture in this way: After being told how to live, these people, living in a culture that feels there is only one right way to live, feel they are living the only way a human should live.
THis is why, when a person believes they live the one and only way a person can live, they will be greedy, they will destroy those who do not live in the right way and they will make sure only those who live the right way, are prosperous.
There is no right way to live, there is no wrong way to live. There is only living. Tell your friends.
Re: So this is humanity . . .
Etruscia wrote:There is no right way to live, there is no wrong way to live. There is only living.
Right and Wrong have no inherent meaning unless compared to some subjective standard, so your statement is somewhat of a truism.
However, I think that there are many effective ways to live, and many ineffective ways to live. And human society as we know it, could not exist if we take such a naturalistic view of things that we ignore fundamental interactions which have been built up over generations.
Our current levels of population, and even the places in which we choose to live, are connected to the mechanisms of our culture. Things like electricity, and clothing and food distribution are systems which would begin to crumble if we allowed everyone to act in a purely "natural" way, without regard for culturally accepted "rights" and "wrongs".
By the part you quoted, all i meant by it is that we as a culture feel civilization is the best thing we ever invented and we feel that humans should live in our hierchal civilization. The fact is there are other more sustainable ways to live. Our way of living is in fact ineffective by the very fact we will not be able to keep it up very long where as the tribal way of life has existed for over a million years.
By right, i mean correct, or in fact just way. There is no one way for humans to live. We are in the one of maximum destruction.
Etruscia wrote:By right, i mean correct, or in fact just way. There is no one way for humans to live. We are in the one of maximum destruction.
I'm not sure I agree. Our very existence owes to the way we currently exploit our natural resources, and certainly those resources will eventually fail, but there's a good chance that long before that, we will have learned to live in other ways. We are living in a process of change which will never end.
If anything, the way of life is the way of change. Not only is there no single "best" way to live, but all ways, no matter how efficient must adapt or fail. It is our adaptability which has made us so successful. Only microbes and insects challenge us in this regard.
I cannot say that I fully agree here. First off, why are we always talking about human beings AND nature. Makes it sound like humans are some kind of freak beings that don't really belong, but than was put into creation upon it's completion.
Nothing humans can do contradicts any intention from natures side. I say nature is the greatest creator. Nature has given man powers that he himself cannot control.
And rosborne, our very existence does not rely on anything but the fact that we are born. What you are talking about is the quality of our existence, and that we decide for ourselves based on the knowledge we posess, or don't posess. Choice is the key word. That is the gift from nature, and that is what it all relies on.
Cyracuz wrote:And rosborne, our very existence does not rely on anything but the fact that we are born.
Hi Cyracuz,
I wasn't talking about individuals. When I say "our", I'm talking about Human Culture as it currently exists, not what it takes for a given individual to exist.
Cyracuz: I see what you mean about the nature thing.
My main point is that i believe we are in a culture that will eventually die out because it is unsustainable. It is true that we cant do anything that is unnatrual, but all "can't" means is that it wont last forever. I have hope, not faith, but hope that we will move "beyond civilization" and live in a way that is sustainable and yet provides thecomforts that we now cannot live without.
Rosborne, Etruscia, human culture as it currently exists is a mirror image of the individuals that participate in it. As long as there are humans there will be human culture.
I understand what you mean Etruscia, when you say that our culture will soon die out. I don't believe our culture will die short of the last human dying. But there is an ongoing debate on what is culture, and this I believe will rid the world of many misconceptions as to what culture is. I assume you are referring to the reckless behaviour of humans when you say culture.
But, as I said in the beginning, our culture is a mirror of our individuals' inner life. The responsibility to shape up is personal and individual. The only idea that is proven wrong, and proven wrong long since, is that you can have a society where the government assumes control over the individual and still be happy. Humans will never be happy until they assume the full responsibility of their existence, because that is the only way they can realize their full potential. The true war is in our hearts.
Your right, im not talking about human culture in general because as you said, where there is more than one of us, we have a culture. Im talking about 99.9% of the worlds population which is as destructive as possible.
There are a few cultures that are not ours. About the "culture is in the individuals within it" thing, i would agree with you. Im hard pressed to find a way to write what im thinking, "Beyond Civilization" by Daniel Quinn id really good.
This destructiveness is dangerous to you only until you embrace it and find peace with the fact that you are a bloodthirsty bastard, and that it is your nature. It's like drugs. You cannot quit before you admit you have a problem. Denial will only break you. Why else is it that violent children who are given lessons in boxing end up with an extremely sophisticated view on this problem. Another thing. This child might want to hit someone. You know he will. Why not teach him what damage a blow makes. I am certain that many people die because they fought someone who didn't know when to quit because they'd never practiced violence before.
The fact is though, that our nature isnt to be bloodthirsty(if that is what you are implying) anymore than a gorrilla is bloodthirsty or a dolphin is bloodthirsty.
I know. But there is violence in us. By denying it it builds up until it flows over. Dangerous.
The solution is simple. Reduce the population, if you cut breeding down to a fraction of its present rate (and then in the subsequent generations raise it to a sustaining level rather than a reducing one) then within a single generation every problem of the human race will completely dissappear, no more poverty, significantly less disease, more than sufficient natural resources. Hell, even if you only dropped the population down to 1 billion that'd still alleviate the problems by a huge degree.
Think about it. Our present day farms and infrastructure could support that many people easily, all power sources could be replaced with solar given the decreased energy need... of course there would have to be a massive ammount of organisation for this.
That's just one technique out of many we could use if the human race got its act together and worked as a group. If our species was not so obsessed with their own selfish individual desires then the poorest individual of that society would have more resources available to them than the richest of ours. (Factored in over the lifetime of our species).
Evolution doesn't work that way though, so humans think about 65% on an individual level, 20% on a family/social group level, 10% on a national level and about 5% on a global/species level (note: like 64.5% of statistics these numbers were pulled out of thin air).
it is imposible every animal has a most basic of urges to breed you take that away and you get total distruction of all civilisation
Spawn wrote:it is imposible every animal has a most basic of urges to breed you take that away and you get total distruction of all civilisation
Hmmm.... *checks ID card* apparently I'm an -Animalia Chordata Vertebrata Mammalia Primate Hominadae Homo Sapiens-
Oooh, that first word Animalia. I'm in the animal kingdom. YAY! Wait a minute, I neither have the urge, inclination nor desire to ever debase myself to the abjectly low point of reproduction. Eww.
So much for that theory.
Sure the solution is simple . . . but the application is more complicated than anything.
Antibuddha, if you can come up with anysort of convincing plan . . ill be on board. But you wont. So im not.
Etruscia wrote:Antibuddha, if you can come up with anysort of convincing plan . . ill be on board. But you wont. So im not.
How rude. How dare you assume what I will and will not do?
Fine... give me a few days. I'll write a detailed plan of action for you. Sheesh...
Humanity is a state of mind. We are born as men and women, as primates of our species. To become human is something we have to work on individually. Just because you can say that all men and women are homo sapiens, that doesn't neccesarily make them human. There are monsters in this world, and they dress in suits and wear powdered scents like many primates of our species, but they are more devilish than any demon from any book. Are they worthy of the term humanity?
Cyracuz wrote:There are monsters in this world, and they dress in suits and wear powdered scents like many primates of our species, but they are more devilish than any demon from any book. Are they worthy of the term humanity?
Yes.
I'm ashamed of my species. I wish I could claim I was not a human, so that I didn't have to be likened to the rest of them. I can not. They are all my kin, from the child-raping priest to the conniving politician.
That's why it's our responsibility to be as noble as we can. Not to escape our species, but to redeem it.
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