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If God made earth to be perfect, what is the point of heaven?

 
 
m3tacom
 
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2017 07:59 am
If God is perfect then his creations should be perfect, right? Then that would mean that the earth is a perfect creation. Then why would God have to create another perfect place, heaven, and use it to entice us to believe in him? What makes heaven better than earth, if the earth is supposed to be perfect.
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Type: Question • Score: 3 • Views: 1,310 • Replies: 32
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2017 08:50 am
@m3tacom,
Heaven=Earth^i
NB
Straw Men ={Scarecrows, Demands for 'proof' for metaphysical postulates}
0 Replies
 
DiscipleDave
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2020 06:37 pm
@m3tacom,
m3tacom wrote:
If God is perfect then his creations should be perfect, right? Then that would mean that the earth is a perfect creation. Then why would God have to create another perfect place, heaven, and use it to entice us to believe in him? What makes heaven better than earth, if the earth is supposed to be perfect.


lol, a husband and wife create a perfect healthy baby. Does that mean that child remains PERFECT Always? lol

God created a perfect World. men corrupted it.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2020 11:52 am
@m3tacom,
Hold on there. Perfect for what?

You have to know what the purpose of something is before you can determine its 'perfection' for that task.
So what is Earth for? Answer that and you can then see if it’s perfect.
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2020 05:44 pm
God made the world and said that it was "very good". Adam and Eve sinned. The world was now in a "fallen" state.
The Messiah (Jesus) came to reverse the damage done by Adam. His death on the cross and His resurrection made it possible for a person to regain spiritual life. All the person needs to do is accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. In Christian terms the believer "has been saved", "is being saved", and "will be saved".
When a believer dies physically his spirit goes to be with God in heaven.
In the future Jesus will get rid of all evil. There will be a new heaven and Earth. Believers will have full access to both.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2020 06:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Hold on there. Perfect for what?

You have to know what the purpose of something is before you can determine its 'perfection' for that task.
So what is Earth for? Answer that and you can then see if it’s perfect.

Good point. Earth has obviously evolved to take care of itself, and life forms have evolved to overcome previous shortcomings and adapt to environmental changes.

Humans have also evolved to take care of themselves and their resources, which is why the Bible says that humans are supposed to take dominion of nature and subdue it. This doesn't just refer to our own wild-nature, but also those aspect of external nature that go against God's will.

Now you're asking what is God's will and how can we know it. Well that is the big question and part of knowing His will involves understanding that we can never be 100% sure we understand it, so it is always better to err on the side of caution (That is surely God's will, if nothing else!)

So now we can begin to take the first step toward doing God's will on/for Earth, by using all the gifts and talents God has given us to exercise caution and yet also try to subdue all those negative forces that we can as best we can, all the while knowing we are prone to sin (prone to making mistakes) and thus perpetuating our own corruption and thus the corruption of this world.

It is a very tough challenge, one that we should be cautious in undertaking even while we exercise pro-active caution by striving to reduce the burdens that we put on others and on natural resources.

We're also supposed to pray to God for guidance and assistance: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; thy kingdom come, thy will be done; on Earth as it is in Heaven."
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 07:01 am
@livinglava,
That was all very nice, but you still did not address the question of what earth is for and why is it perfect for that purpose. So I will address your central point below, which I contend is completely at odds with the book you claim to believe.

LL quote:
Quote:
Now you're asking what is God's will and how can we know it. Well that is the big question and part of knowing His will involves understanding that we can never be 100% sure we understand it, so it is always better to err on the side of caution (That is surely God's will, if nothing else!)

On the attitude that God would have us embrace, I don’t see that the book supports your recommendation. God looks like an all or nothing kind of being. Sure, he says we should use all our powers of reason and logic and ask him for what else we need to make a good decision, but after we have done that, 'caution' is not what the book recommends.

Quote:
Revelation 3:15-16 KJV
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. [16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


God seems to be saying to Go big or go home. That’s a God I can relate to.

So do you have any concept for what the purpose of earth is and why it is perfect for it?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 07:45 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

So do you have any concept for what the purpose of earth is and why it is perfect for it?

I don't know where people come up with this idea of perfectionism, that everything God creates must be perfect, and therefore there is no such thing as sin, etc.

'Sin' refers to 'missing the mark.' We don't know exactly what perfection is, because we are part and parcel of an imperfect world; but we have some ability to imagine ideals and strive for them, and then to reflect on what we have achieved and how it falls short of something better.

So you're asking what the purpose of Earth is and why it is 'perfect' for it, but the only good response I can give you to that is that Earth has developed and evolved throughout its long natural history in a way that has established certain forms of life and ecological patterns through which the various forms of life and energy restore and sustain themselves and each other.

So you have plants evolving to reflect sunlight so that they don't dry out, and then animals evolve to eat the plants and live in their shade so that they don't dry out either. Basically all water-based life has evolved to avoid drying up or otherwise dying in some way.

So life sustains itself in various ways, but there is also the capacity to sin against life and cause its destruction. And sin provokes further sin, such as when someone destroys your life and/or property, so you seek to retaliate and destroy theirs, etc.

But if you look at how the Earth has evolved and developed, there is this capacity for sustainable patterns of life, where producers/photosynthesizers evolve in tandem with consumers that feed off them. There's a lot more going on than producing and consuming food, though, so if you take an ecological perspective to seeing how all these life-forms sustain themselves and the broader ecological networks and biomes of the planet, then you should be able to see that everything is discovering and fulfilling its various purposes and functions for its own body systems and those of other organisms.

It's extremely complex, but surely you can at least see that there are mutually-supportive patterns of life going on, and then there are also patterns that are not mutually-supportive, which are gradually depleting future resources by propagating unsustainable practices.

You're asking about 'purpose,' but to even ask that question, you have to already begin fulfilling the part of your purpose as a sentient being of seeing the bigger picture of the Earth and all its life forms, including humans; and how we all function vis-a-vis each other in terms of harming and/or benefiting each other and ourselves in various ways that are either permanently sustainable or in some way leading to more problems at some future time.

You are judging the Bible negatively, but it is just a book that contains a lot of wisdom written down through the ages. If you seek wisdom in it, you will find more than you can even keep track of.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 07:50 am
@NealNealNeal,
Quote:
All the person needs to do is accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. In Christian terms the believer "has been saved", "is being saved", and "will be saved".
When a believer dies physically his spirit goes to be with God in heaven.


If you believe that as sufficient for salvation, what do you make of this scripture?

Quote:
Matthew 7:22-23 KJV
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 07:52 am
@livinglava,
Thanks. I guess you’re not a big picture kind of guy.
I was looking for something more expansive than that.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:04 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
You are judging the Bible negatively,

Not at all. But I do insist on an interpretation that is coherent and makes sense when considered in its entirety.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:21 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
You are judging the Bible negatively,

Not at all. But I do insist on an interpretation that is coherent and makes sense when considered in its entirety.

If you make conditions for seeking wisdom in the Bible, then you won't seek it, which means you won't find it.

What seems like 'incoherence' and 'senslessness in its entirety,' to you now might come to seem like something you had to deal with to receive the wisdom once you receive that wisdom by overcoming your resistance based on your current perception.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:28 am
@livinglava,
You are amazing. I can always rely on you for the worst possible interpretation of both the Bible and my post.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:32 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

You are amazing. I can always rely on you for the worst possible interpretation of both the Bible and my post.

So you are making the implicit point that I should interpret your post more positively because that's what I am doing when I seek wisdom in the Bible instead of interpreting it in a negative way to rationalize rejecting it altogether?

What possible wisdom could I get from interpreting your post differently?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:51 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
What seems like 'incoherence' and 'senslessness in its entirety,' to you now might come to seem like something you had to deal with to receive the wisdom once you receive that wisdom by overcoming your resistance based on your current perception.

Where did I say or imply that I thought the Bible was Incoherent and senseless in its entirety?

I say again, your hermeneutics is abominable.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 08:58 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What seems like 'incoherence' and 'senslessness in its entirety,' to you now might come to seem like something you had to deal with to receive the wisdom once you receive that wisdom by overcoming your resistance based on your current perception.

Where did I say or imply that I thought the Bible was Incoherent and senseless in its entirety?

I say again, your hermeneutics is abominable.

You said, " But I do insist on an interpretation that is coherent and makes sense when considered in its entirety. "

So your point was that my interpretation is incoherent and makes no sense in its entirety?

Again, what is the point of judging my interpretation except to create a condition for seeking wisdom or not?

If you can't find wisdom in things I say, that is your problem not mine. Go read something where you can find wisdom and then you will have the wisdom to tell me something I can learn from.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 09:03 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
You said, " But I do insist on an interpretation that is coherent and makes sense when considered in its entirety. "

So your point was that my interpretation is incoherent and makes no sense in its entirety?

Bingo.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 09:08 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
You said, " But I do insist on an interpretation that is coherent and makes sense when considered in its entirety. "

So your point was that my interpretation is incoherent and makes no sense in its entirety?

Bingo.

What do you get from ridiculing me? Sadistic pleasure?

Did you read the rest of the post you are citing here? Why don't you seek wisdom instead of seeking to put people like me down because you can't get anything from reading what we write?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 09:24 am
@livinglava,
My fellow man, I’m not ridiculing you. I wouldn’t even be addressing you if I didn’t see something lovable in you.
To point out my error would be the kindest thing you could do for me. Go ahead, make my day.

It’s so hard to be taken seriously about anything these days.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 06:14 pm
Leadfoot------just as a baby does not need to do anything to be born, so a person does not need to do anything to be "born again" (except to believe).
The people in the verse were doing things that were not "in Christ" so Jesus did not consider these acts to be meaningful. A person needs to first have a personal relationship with God.
Once a person is "born again" God works in his life to do good works. This is as common to the Christian as breathing is to a person who is physically alive
 

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