Catholics vs Protestants

Maybe god would only allow himself partial control, as a parent would with children. You make the individual decisions, but I'll steer things.

After all, the old testament says he created us for his amusement, and who wants to play with something predictable? We don't like watching re-runs so maybe god doesn't either. Maybe god watches like I watch columbo - 15 minutes late so it becomes a mystery instead of a story.

I believe in both. God transcends the limits of time and space and can see the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, yet we have been given free will. From a human logical viewpoint these two do indeed seem mutually exclusive, but as I see it, that is a result of human limitations. It is simply not possible to comprehend the infinite from a finite point of view.

I don't quite follow what you're saying. Catholics (the literalists at least) would imply that Adam had to have free will to have eatten the apple just as you are claiming that Protestants do. Also, early Calvanists believed in Predestination. Claiming that God knows the future doesn't necessarily mean that He causes the future. The future (and all time for that matter) exists at all points always and could, if you're going to suggest a God, be self evident to Himself without His conscious will in bringing any particular event about. We have Einstein to thank for these fun issues with time .

The voice/s in Adam's head told him a lot of funny things along the way. We have medications for that sort of thing these days.

I used to be catholic, many years ago. We were taught not to believe in predestination.

I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic elementry schools but the term predestination was never used.

I've seen it used to mean 3 or 4 different things in the last day or so (oddly, it's come up here as well as other forums I frequent.) and I think you have to clarify how you are using the word here.

One meaning applies the term to a belief that there are a set number of people (or a specific race) that will be admitted into heaven - AFAIK Catholics reject this belief.

A second meaning applies a belief that God can/does determine who will or will not be "saved". This might be a belief held by evangelical Catholics but I've never seen anything leading me to believe that any Catholics follow it.

A third meaning (which derives from writings from the Council of Trent circa 1545) applies a belief that God doesn't predestine anyone to damnation (this idea is almost an exact opposite of the 2nd). This, I think, IS a basic tenent of Catholic teaching (i.e. that anyone can "reach salvation".) but it is an inverted use of the word from the way Calvinists use it.

The 1st two of those would seem to reject the idea of free will. The 3rd is compatible with free will.

The third one is the way I learned it.

As a Protestant I have always believed in free will which would preclude any possibility of predestination.

I'm not really sure what happened to the concept of Predestination. I go to a Presbyterian church and it's never been mentioned, so I'm pretty sure that it's not a part anymore, although the Calvanists did believe in it and Calvanism branched into Presbyterianism, although I'm not sure exactly how... Anyone know more on this? We seem confused, although this is a little off topic.

Predestination and free will are not mutualy exclusive states. What the outcome will be may be known to God. How you go about achieving that outcome is your own free-willed decision. As an example: if it's destined that you will die at the end of a rope, you will die at the end of a rope. It's your free will whether or not you commit suicide, It's your free will whether or not you commit murder and thus become eligible to be hanged. How you live your life is all about free will. What the end result will be, however, is predestined.

I don't know if I'm ready to make that leap


It seems to me like this is kind of a mixed system. Sure you are predestined to hang on a rope, but are you not also predestined to commit whatever act that ends in you on that rope? Seems to me that with predestination, it's either all or nothing.

It seems that those that should know think Catholics do not endorse the style of predestination I had envisioned. The source of my crazy idea is that I saw a debate several months ago in a forum I can't find anymore between a Catholic and a Protestant on this very issue. And both seemed very versed in the rhetoric of their position, which led me to believe that this wasn't an individual thing. Each of them thought the idea of the other's God was barbaric! The Catholic demanded that God knew all, so he already knows when you're born if you're going to heaven or hell (this resembles a prior post)(this guy may have been a different brand of Catholic). And the protestant demanded that God does not know all, because he has graced humans with free will, whose decisions even he cannot know. And I just wanted to see these positions attacked or defended So forget, if you want, the question of Catholicism vs Protestantism (to be revisited later if we get some new blood that can confirm my experience from months ago), and just make it a THEIST question on predestination with a tie-in to god's knowledge. And if you're going to say we can't know god's will or god works in mysterious ways or it is for us to follow not to question, so we shouldn't even try, save it! Anybody can spout that... I'm looking for thoughtful conjecture!

I woulda thought that the story of Adam and Eve
was a story of free will, no matter what the
consequences!

I'll put five-to-three on the Protestants because so damned many of them are tight-assed and gun-obsessed to begin with.

How you gonna regulate the brawl, any weapons restrictions or is everyone free to bring their cudgel of choice to the party?

OK, ok, ok . . . but this is the last time . . .


Paddy and a Prod are lurking through the alleyways of Belfast one night, they come around the same corner at the same instant and blow each other away in the same instant . . .



So like, St. Peter is pissed . . .

You know, i'm sick of you Irish killin' each other in the name of Jesus, and then showin' up here, expectin' to get let right in . . . you're not goin' anywhere until you convince me you understand the mystery of Easter . . . take a seat . . .

So, like, he calls up the Prod . . .

Explain to me the mystery of Easter!"

Well, of course, the Prod is clueless, so Zap ! ! !, straight to Hell with him . . .

O.K., Paddy, you see how well your friend fared, come over here . . .

Paddy's sweatin' bullets now . . .

Explain to me the Mystery of Easter!

Well, now, O.K., t'ey took our Lord Jaysus Christ out, an' t'ey hung 'im on a cross till 'e was dead, t'en t'ey took 'im down, an' t'ey la-ayd 'im out in t'e tomb . . .

Uh, huh . . . and the Mystery of Easter, Paddy?

An', an' . . . well he went ta Hell fer t'ree days, and on t'e t'ird day, he arose again from t'e dead . . .

Yes, Paddy, I'm waiting . . .

Well, now, corrict me ef i'm wrong, but ef 'e see's 'is shaddah . . .

As far as I remeber, both Catholic as Protestants view are referring to the Augustinian interpretation - and thus, both are opposite to especially the Calvinist's view.

I think it is a matter of definition


I suspect that many Catholics use a different definition for the term than many protestants may. A better comparison might be between Arminian's and Calvinists. JMO.




My experience is that Protestants (on the whole) fit in one of two camps, either those who believe free will means "Can do otherwise", and those who believe free will means "Can do otherwise if they wanted to". In other words, there are both Arminians and Calvinists to be found in those who call themselves Protestants.




That depends entirely on the definition you choose to use. Not all definitions of predestination are incompatible with all definitions of free will.

If you use predestination in a fatalistic sense, it means that you cannot change your future, thus free will is illusory. But, I've always understood it (and heard it in various churches, both catholic and protestant) to mean that we have free will, but that our actions are known by God. It's a difficult concept to get our minds around, since we are entirely bound by time. Since God is not constrained by time, He can know what we will do AND we have free will. It doesn't mean we're like marionettes, just that God knows what will happen.

I was raised a Catholic, and was told by the priests that it was Protestants who believed in predestination.
It was another proof of their evilness.

Other differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are way more important, IMHO.
The role of hierarchy, for example.

As an agnostic, I will simply quote the following:

SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING

1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT).

2. God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will.

3. God desires all men to be saved.

4. Jesus died to redeem all men.

5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved.

6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace.

7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again.

8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin.

9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace.

10. Those who do persevere are God's elect.

11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate.

12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere.

13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).

IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONS

1. Predestination is not predetermination

2. Election is a consequence of God's foreknowledge

3. Free will can resist and reject God's grace

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm