4
   

Clean and Unclean Meats

 
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2017 02:19 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

kinda dumb really. Such dietary laws were more for food sanitation. Nowadays pigs are raised and butchered nd packed under more hygienic means. So we dont need no steenkin boogerman to scare us from our meat.

Well, there was a parasite that could live in not fully cooked pork (trichinosis I think). And, yes, buying cooked pork products today is safer. However, the dietary laws of the Old Testament get all involved with whether the animal has a cloven hoof, and chews its cud. Then for seafood there are restrictions if the fish doesn't have scales. I'm only guessing, but I wonder if these laws were codified at the point that Jews were moving from country to country, and it occurred to someone that these laws would assuage the scare of the indigenous populations that the Jews were going to eat all their protein.

Today, I wonder if keeping kosher has more to do with preventing assimilation, since many of the Orthodox have children that look more Nordic than Scandanavians, in my opinion.

And, a billion Muslims don't eat pork also. But, I don't know where their dietary laws are codified.
0 Replies
 
Christian0912
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2017 06:09 pm
@chai2,
I'm still waiting...
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2017 12:17 am
@Christian0912,
Good lad, waiting's good for the soul. Now have a nice long quiet wait and don't bother anyone else.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2017 04:22 am
Hmmm . . . makes me long for a pile of crisp bacon, some bangers, a couple of ham steaks . . . oh, and some scrapple, cooked in the bacon fat.
0 Replies
 
cameronleon
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2017 09:11 pm
@farmerman,
Isn't that simple.

Pork meat has the fat and flesh mixed that way that you can't separate them.

On the other hand, cow meat or lamb meat have fat and flesh easy to be separated one from the another.

The bible specifies not eating the fat of animals, and whatever you do with pork meat, you always eat lots of fat. A reason to avoid its consumption.

fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2017 12:58 am
@cameronleon,
Okay prof. So now explain why the OT prohibits the wearing of garments made with a mixture of wool and linen.
cameronleon
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2017 07:58 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
So now explain why the OT prohibits the wearing of garments made with a mixture of wool and linen.


The answer to that question is hard to find.

We have two materials, one from vegetables source, the another from animals source.

Their fibers are very different.

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Cyclopaedia/images/Magnified-Fibres-of-Linen-Cotton-Wool-and-Silk.jpg

A=Linen C= Wool

When you wash them both of them shrink, at different rates but both shrink.

There is the idea that this law is in reference to the priests who wore a linen and wool garments, and common people weren't suppose to wear similar and be confused as priests.

Another theory comes with Cain And Abel who presented offerings to God, one vegetable and the another an animal, one from which linen comes from, the another from which wool comes from. There is a kind of remembrance to the murdering of Abel by Cain and by such the union of this materials in the same cloth wasn't accepted.

In my opinion, the wearing of clothes for priests having wool and linen parts attached together must be a more acceptable reason for differentiate them from the common people.

I strongly think that Jesus dressed as a priest, and for this reason, while dressing as a religious authority he was able to ask a common fisherman using words like, "drop your net and follow me", and the fisherman was obedient and followed the religious authority.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 02:12 am
@cameronleon,
I applaud your efforts to research the point.
Your distinctive badge of rank in a power structure makes sense, (after all , pwer and control is one of the functions of religion) but perhaps the explanation is related to the long fur of our primate ancestors who needed to stop it matting with linseed oil ! Wink
You won't accept it, but the more intricate the rule structure of the system, the more it reifies (makes appear genuine) its status.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 07:04 am
@cameronleon,
yever see a steak? Its all marbled .
The concept of unclean and "cloven hooves" has gotta be a KJV diddy, since my Jewish uncles always told me that Jews didnt invent the concept of a devil, the Christians did. The "clean unclean" issues were doctrinal conclusions that were drawn in order to first preserve somwe sort of hygiene.
Thats why "seafood without scales or a face (clams etc) are "unclean"

gotta go

chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 03:59 pm
@farmerman,
That was my first thought farmer, trying to separate fat from the marbling of a steak.

Conversely, it's easy to see the layer of fat on a pork loin, and other cuts of pork.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/medias.photodeck.com/31098ce2-961b-4493-9c28-d2fe38ade544/29LN0615-6_xlarge.jpg

http://www.premiermeats.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/r/o/roast_pork_loin_raw_1.jpg
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 04:20 pm
@cameronleon,
cameronleon wrote:

When you wash them both of them shrink, at different rates but both shrink.


ya ever do laundry? there are more blends out there than there are football and soccer and fusball teams

you wash and prepare yarns before you use them to make clothing - so that the shrinkage is over and done with. there's rarely significant shrinkage (unless you make a mess of things) after the clothing item is complete - the difference in the yarns doesn't matter at that point
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 04:26 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Conversely, it's easy to see the layer of fat on a pork loin, and other cuts of pork.


modern pork yeah

traditional (and currently popular) pork like Berkshire/Snake River/Kurobuta) is well-marbled

http://www.snakeriverfarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/r/srf-pork-collar-raw2.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 04:52 pm
@ehBeth,
hi beth!. After our prop gets fixed We leave for Sable Island on Tuesday and then bck to the Gulf of Maine .

Apparently hes never heard of Linnsey woolsey. The pre weaving washing is done even earlier before spinning.Wool scales almost always blend and capture other types of yarns and hold em. Its possible to make linnsey woolsey "felt" . (I know that Mrs F has her peruvian spinners make a silk/Ramboulleit (hoggit) fibre thats almost like cashmere)
Mrs F (a champeen fibre artist, sez that Quahog is just a teeny bit fulla **** .)'


The meat point is that all meats develop marbling in finishing.
Our lamb looks like veal. Id say that of all the meats, poultry is the most clearly defined for "fat" and lean.
Had some really great scal'ps for supper. Just fried naked in butter and served just browned and with potatoes nd a root salad. Sometimes ya just cant mess with plain
cameronleon
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 08:12 pm
@fresco,
Your insight is accepted for consideration.

At this point, when actually no one can state with certainty the reason of such a prohibition, no contribution can be turned down.

0 Replies
 
cameronleon
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 09:20 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
yever see a steak? Its all marbled .
The concept of unclean and "cloven hooves" has gotta be a KJV diddy, since my Jewish uncles always told me that Jews didnt invent the concept of a devil, the Christians did. The "clean unclean" issues were doctrinal conclusions that were drawn in order to first preserve somwe sort of hygiene.
Thats why "seafood without scales or a face (clams etc) are "unclean"


We can't argue much if we use our current methods of prevention in cooking against those days when the laws were given.

The washing of hands before eating food wasn't a Torah's law, neither a regulation established by the prophets, but a rule imposed by the priests themselves later on.

Those priests weren't wrong after all, as we can understand that our current knowledge advice us to clean our hands before touching the food we are going to eat.

When I pointed how hard is separating fat from flesh in pork, however, there is something more that must be clarified.

Pigs have only one stomach, and the digestion process is simple, and pigs do not do well rejecting toxins. Have you ever saw a pig eating food? Of course they have a greatly powered saliva as a defense, but its digestive system do not allow the secretion of toxins and these go and storage themselves in the mixed flesh and fat of the pig.

For a moment observe every week, when the garbage truck picks up the garbage from your house. This is the job of the pig in nature. Pigs eat rotten bodies, the excrement of other animals, small animals, plants, anything.

Even farmers, if you think they use clean products for feeding pigs, well, some farmers "buy" garbage" in order to feed their swine farm.

Nature has its garbage trucks working 24/7 with pigs, ravens, vultures, catfish, rock fish, etc. You send the meat of these animals to a lab and great percent of toxins will be found.

It has been studied as well that scales in fish allows them to release bacteria and impurities. With fish without scales, bacteria and viruses stay freely inside their bodies. In other words, fish without scales can't "purify" itself from bacteria.

Animals with hard shells are like the gravel you put at the bottom of the fish tank. The use of gravel is not for decoration purposes alone but for purification of the water, when waves of the liquid pass thru them and the impurities are storage between the stones.

When you open the shell covering the head of crab, you will find a brownish substance with dirt. Such is the duty of these hard shell animals, to purify water. The impurities of the water in contact with the interior of the shell, the body of the crab, will transmit bacteria and toxins thru osmosis, and there you have, another "impure" animal not recommended for eating.

And there are more reasons explaining why the author of this law about pure and impure animals enjoyed a knowledge that is confirmed as correct when prevention against infections from eating "impure" animals is advised.

Something that you might argue in your favor is that meat from impure animals has a better taste.

But when we talk about what is good for your health, flavor is not the rule but what is recommended is prevention of not ingesting toxins, contaminated meat, etc.







cameronleon
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2017 09:24 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
ya ever do laundry? there are more blends out there than there are football and soccer and fusball teams

you wash and prepare yarns before you use them to make clothing - so that the shrinkage is over and done with. there's rarely significant shrinkage (unless you make a mess of things) after the clothing item is complete - the difference in the yarns doesn't matter at that point


Thanks for such a good information.

Unfortunately, some thousands years ago, people possibly didn't use your current and modern acquired technique.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2017 04:31 am
@cameronleon,
ruminents have 4 "chambers" of a digestiv organ we call a stomach. The first two chambers actually make up over 75% of the entire stomach (not including the ceacum). Your point was that a cows "fat" was easier to separate than was a pigs.
I believe you are closer to reality when you were talking about dietary habits of pigs v ruminents. The ruminents just graze on grass or browse on leaves while pigs "root" into the dirt for food. This really has nothing to do with "slow v fast twitch" musculature (which defines fattiness in lamb/beef/ pork (and even bison if you keep em in a pen).

Pigs , also members of artiodactyls like cows and sheep, have taken a different evolutionary path than did the bovids and cervids. They became non-obligate omnivores that developed keen senses of smell, high activity in foor seeking, and a nasal structure that served well for smelling food thats even buried, hence the rooting. Pork will become very well marbled if kept in confinement so their slow twitch muscles become heavily marbled (The pigs we raised had always been allowed to take over a given pasture which they ruined ). Pigs gave people an appearance of being eaters of filth. In biblical time swine would eat carrion or root plqnt .Ruminents will just peacefully graze unless you expose them to predation , then they will develop "Fst twitch" based defenses .
Slow twitch mucles develop marbling, fast twitch muscles develop "fells" and cap fats . Its a diet and exercise thing, not a species thing.
Quote:
but its digestive system do not allow the secretion of toxins and these go and storage themselves in the mixed flesh and fat of the pig.
I have no idea what youre ven talking about and Ive been owner of a sheep frm thqt hqs dabbled in cattle and very small scale piggies.Ive attended all sorts of stock diet and health seminrs at a nearby Veterinary research compound and Ive never heard anything about bigs "sequestering toxins" in their flesh. Any animal will adsorb toxins if it has an adsorption/desorption coefficient that exceeds the buffer capacity of the animals circulatory and digestive system. Cows are often given doses of Kd substances to chelate toxins that show up in their milk(otherwise the toxicants will adsorb in the meat, (especially slow twitch muscle that are the most marbled)

Time for a Timmy breakfass.


farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2017 04:57 am
@farmerman,
another point in the fast twicth thing. Pigs are butchered quite small and young today than they were in our colonial times. A finished pig is about 250 to 300 lb TOPS (unless you want some big flavorful Duroc restaurant pig, where wed raise em big and myoglobin rich and fatty as hell.

In sheep, the lambs are way less marbled than are mutton sheep. Lambs are taken at about 120 lb tops while mutton sheep can get to be up to 300 lb (some Suffolks are even bigger).

I think the rabbis only saw these animals eating ,or in the case of clams, their residences in the mud and sand).

"
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2017 05:09 am
@farmerman,
No matter what we try to concoct about hygiene (Im still a fan), Uncle Stosh used to tell me that our great great grandparents who kept kosher, really loved to follow the rules because it more or less, kept Jews from fraternizing with the non_Jewish population in Russia.
Early Jews were more lik Amish , enjoying their "separate" status, and dietary rules were just a way to keep score.


We aint leaving for breakfast until our friends get ready , theyre still asleep.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2017 08:49 am
@cameronleon,
cameronleon wrote:
people possibly didn't use your current and modern acquired technique.


nothing modern about it

we learned it from our grandparents who learned it from their grandparents who learned it from their grandparents and on and on

as long as there has been twisted fibre, people have known how to prepare it , use it and care for it
 

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