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Democracy is best served by strict separation of...

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2005 10:34 pm
To clarify a couple of other comments made today:
The pastor of the Dansbury Baptist congregation was a personal friend and colleague of Jefferson and that is no doubt why the letter from the congregation was addressed specifically to Jefferson though it was addressed from the congregation.

Jefferson was not writing the letter to establish a 'separation of Church of State' but the 'wall of separation' cited was to reassure the Baptists that the Constitution of the United States prevented government from attempting to restrict or regulate the Baptists which was their fear.

Here is an excellent compact essay on the issue of the 'wall' and Jefferson complete with bibliography if any of you are inclined to check the writer's take on it.

The Separation of Church and State

by David Barton

In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." The "separation of church and state" phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President.

The election of Jefferson-America's first Anti-Federalist President-elated many Baptists since that denomination, by-and-large, was also strongly Anti-Federalist. This political disposition of the Baptists was understandable, for from the early settlement of Rhode Island in the 1630s to the time of the federal Constitution in the 1780s, the Baptists had often found themselves suffering from the centralization of power.

Consequently, now having a President who not only had championed the rights of Baptists in Virginia but who also had advocated clear limits on the centralization of government powers, the Danbury Baptists wrote Jefferson a letter of praise on October 7, 1801, telling him:

Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity . . . to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the United States. . . . [W]e have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which He bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you. . . . And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.1

However, in that same letter of congratulations, the Baptists also expressed to Jefferson their grave concern over the entire concept of the First Amendment, including of its guarantee for "the free exercise of religion":

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. . . . [T]herefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. 2

In short, the inclusion of protection for the "free exercise of religion" in the constitution suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the right of religious expression was government-given (thus alienable) rather than God-given (hence inalienable), and that therefore the government might someday attempt to regulate religious expression. This was a possibility to which they strenuously objected-unless, as they had explained, someone's religious practice caused him to "work ill to his neighbor."

Jefferson understood their concern; it was also his own. In fact, he made numerous declarations about the constitutional inability of the federal government to regulate, restrict, or interfere with religious expression. For example:

[N]o power over the freedom of religion . . . [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.Kentucky Resolution, 1798 3

In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general [federal] government. Second Inaugural Address, 1805 4

[O]ur excellent Constitution . . . has not placed our religious rights under the power of any public functionary. Letter to the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1808 5

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prohibited] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions . . . or exercises. Letter to Samuel Millar, 1808 6

Jefferson believed that the government was to be powerless to interfere with religious expressions for a very simple reason: he had long witnessed the unhealthy tendency of government to encroach upon the free exercise of religion. As he explained to Noah Webster:

It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position in the several States that the purposes of society do not require a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors . . . and which experience has nevertheless proved they [the government] will be constantly encroaching on if submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which experience has proved peculiarly efficacious [effective] against wrong and rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers have ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first kind, for instance, is freedom of religion. 7

Thomas Jefferson had no intention of allowing the government to limit, restrict, regulate, or interfere with public religious practices. He believed, along with the other Founders, that the First Amendment had been enacted only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination-a fact he made clear in a letter to fellow-signer of the Declaration of Independence Benjamin Rush:

[T]he clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly. 8

Jefferson had committed himself as President to pursuing the purpose of the First Amendment: preventing the "establishment of a particular form of Christianity" by the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination.

Since this was Jefferson's view concerning religious expression, in his short and polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; that the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the federal government. As he explained:

Gentlemen,-The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction. . . . Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurances of my high respect and esteem. 9

Jefferson's reference to "natural rights" invoked an important legal phrase which was part of the rhetoric of that day and which reaffirmed his belief that religious liberties were inalienable rights. While the phrase "natural rights" communicated much to people then, to most citizens today those words mean little.

By definition, "natural rights" included "that which the Books of the Law and the Gospel do contain." 10 That is, "natural rights" incorporated what God Himself had guaranteed to man in the Scriptures. Thus, when Jefferson assured the Baptists that by following their "natural rights" they would violate no social duty, he was affirming to them that the free exercise of religion was their inalienable God-given right and therefore was protected from federal regulation or interference.

So clearly did Jefferson understand the Source of America's inalienable rights that he even doubted whether America could survive if we ever lost that knowledge. He queried:

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? 11

Jefferson believed that God, not government, was the Author and Source of our rights and that the government, therefore, was to be prevented from interference with those rights. Very simply, the "fence" of the Webster letter and the "wall" of the Danbury letter were not to limit religious activities in public; rather they were to limit the power of the government to prohibit or interfere with those expressions.

Earlier courts long understood Jefferson's intent. In fact, when Jefferson's letter was invoked by the Supreme Court (only once prior to the 1947 Everson case-the Reynolds v. United States case in 1878), unlike today's Courts which publish only his eight-word separation phrase, that earlier Court published Jefferson's entire letter and then concluded:

Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it [Jefferson's letter] may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the Amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order. (emphasis added) 12

That Court then succinctly summarized Jefferson's intent for "separation of church and state":

[T]he rightful purposes of civil government are for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order. In th[is] . . . is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State. 13

With this even the Baptists had agreed; for while wanting to see the government prohibited from interfering with or limiting religious activities, they also had declared it a legitimate function of government "to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor."

That Court, therefore, and others (for example, Commonwealth v. Nesbit and Lindenmuller v. The People ), identified actions into which-if perpetrated in the name of religion-the government did have legitimate reason to intrude. Those activities included human sacrifice, polygamy, bigamy, concubinage, incest, infanticide, parricide, advocation and promotion of immorality, etc.

Such acts, even if perpetrated in the name of religion, would be stopped by the government since, as the Court had explained, they were "subversive of good order" and were "overt acts against peace." However, the government was never to interfere with traditional religious practices outlined in "the Books of the Law and the Gospel"-whether public prayer, the use of the Scriptures, public acknowledgements of God, etc.

Therefore, if Jefferson's letter is to be used today, let its context be clearly given-as in previous years. Furthermore, earlier Courts had always viewed Jefferson's Danbury letter for just what it was: a personal, private letter to a specific group. There is probably no other instance in America's history where words spoken by a single individual in a private letter-words clearly divorced from their context-have become the sole authorization for a national policy. Finally, Jefferson's Danbury letter should never be invoked as a stand-alone document. A proper analysis of Jefferson's views must include his numerous other statements on the First Amendment.

For example, in addition to his other statements previously noted, Jefferson also declared that the "power to prescribe any religious exercise. . . . must rest with the States" (emphasis added). Nevertheless, the federal courts ignore this succinct declaration and choose rather to misuse his separation phrase to strike down scores of State laws which encourage or facilitate public religious expressions. Such rulings against State laws are a direct violation of the words and intent of the very one from whom the courts claim to derive their policy.

One further note should be made about the now infamous "separation" dogma. The Congressional Records from June 7 to September 25, 1789, record the months of discussions and debates of the ninety Founding Fathers who framed the First Amendment. Significantly, not only was Thomas Jefferson not one of those ninety who framed the First Amendment, but also, during those debates not one of those ninety Framers ever mentioned the phrase "separation of church and state." It seems logical that if this had been the intent for the First Amendment-as is so frequently asserted-then at least one of those ninety who framed the Amendment would have mentioned that phrase; none did.

In summary, the "separation" phrase so frequently invoked today was rarely mentioned by any of the Founders; and even Jefferson's explanation of his phrase is diametrically opposed to the manner in which courts apply it today. "Separation of church and state" currently means almost exactly the opposite of what it originally meant.

Endnotes:

1. Letter of October 7, 1801, from Danbury (CT) Baptist Association to Thomas Jefferson, from the Thomas Jefferson Papers Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

2. Id.

3. The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia, John P. Foley, editor (New York: Funk & Wagnalls, 1900), p. 977; see also Documents of American History, Henry S. Cummager, editor (NY: Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc., 1948), p. 179.

4. Annals of the Congress of the United States (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1852, Eighth Congress, Second Session, p. 78, March 4, 1805; see also James D. Richardson, A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897 (Published by Authority of Congress, 1899), Vol. I, p. 379, March 4, 1805.

5. Thomas Jefferson, Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. I, p. 379, March 4, 1805.

6. Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1830), Vol. IV, pp. 103-104, to the Rev. Samuel Millar on January 23, 1808.

7. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. VIII, p. 112-113, to Noah Webster on December 4, 1790.

8. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. III, p. 441, to Benjamin Rush on September 23, 1800.

9. Jefferson, Writings, Vol. XVI, pp. 281-282, to the Danbury Baptist Association on January 1, 1802.

10. Richard Hooker, The Works of Richard Hooker (Oxford: University Press, 1845), Vol. I, p. 207.

11. Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, p. 237.

12. Reynolds v. U. S., 98 U. S. 145, 164 (1878).

13. Reynolds at 163.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 08:43 am
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 10:03 am
Yes Spendius the tedium continues. Whatever Jefferson intended, there is a good reason to keep religion out of the schools and public places that represent all the people, not just some. But don't try to be rational here.....it will get you exactly nowhere.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 10:07 am
David Barton's article attempts to determine the intent of the framers of the U.S. constitution by using the absence of any mention of a "wall". There is an even more significant absence: the absence of any mention of God or any divinity. The Constitution begins "We the people...." The question of whether God should be invoked was debated by the framers because up until that time most European constitutions invoked God. In my opinion, the decision to omit any divinity in the actual constitution is very significant.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 12:28 pm
Well at least now the argument is no longer the erroneous attempt to say that "Jefferson built a wall of separation" but now the argument is shifting to proof based on what the Constitution didn't say? That's progress I guess. Smile

The Constitution also does not use the term "Church".
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 12:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Here is an excellent compact essay on the issue of the 'wall' and Jefferson complete with bibliography if any of you are inclined to check the writer's take on it.

The Separation of Church and State

by David Barton

A while back when I commented on the lack of credibility to some of David Barton's information that you had posted, you replied

in this thread.
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't get my history from either David Barton and checked your link enough to see that it was Snopes from whom I don't get my history either.

For those unfamiliar with David Barton, his book Americas Godly Heritage which is widely quoted by the religious right, is loaded with inaccuracies and misinformation. For a short critique of his book see this link.

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage" by the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:44 pm
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:03 pm
enjoy ............
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:12 pm
I always think of Walter Hinteler when I read this

Quote:
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758



another link
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:33 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't recall being familiar with David Barton before, Mesquite,-I'm not saying I didn't dismiss a Snopes article as pertinent to a previous discussion--but my search engine pulled up the essay when trying to find a particular site that lists almost all of Jefferson's quotes on this subject. (I didn't find the site yet but will keep looking.) I found Barton's essay to be very much on target with a rationale compatible with those of us who do not accept that the current politically correct interpretation of the First Amendment is at all what was intended.

It could have been 2nd or 3rd hand info, but you had posted info from David Barton's book and it was that info that I was questioning.

Foxfyre wrote:

The fact that they are not the largest Baptist group and not revered by all is not relevant to the issue. Did you have any comment on their critique?

Foxfyre wrote:
The beauty of the First Amendment is that all Americans are free to believe whatever they wish about God, religion, Church, etc. I believe it is a corruption of the First Amendment to insist that religious content/images/metaphors/activity be kept out of all public activity or presence that in any way includes government activity or presence. I think Thomas Jefferson and all the founders of the Constitution would be horrified that the First Amendment would be interpreted that way.
They would also say it is your right to wish it to be that way.


I find it interesting that just a few short years after the 1947 Supreme Court decision, the phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:47 pm
One can find any number of sites on the internet supporting the politically correct view of the First Amendment and will include quotes taken out of context to support that view.

One can also find any number of sites on the internet supporting the view that the First Amendment says Congress shall neither establish nor interfere with the free exercise of religion in the private or public sector and also there will be quotes taken out of context to support that view.

Here's one:
http://www.truenews.org/religious/separation_of_church_and_state.html

There are two ways to approach the issue. 1) Look to the politically correct view and ignore or disparage any history/documentation/person that disputes it or 2) look to all of the history and documentation to determine original intent and then see if original intent is still pertinent in the 21st Century.

I suggest the latter view as being the most productive in the interest of truth.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 04:00 pm
were the truth to be self-evident there would be no forums like a2k. the fact that members of any society have different understandings of the world they live in is what makes the society of man dynamic rather than entropic. Ant colonys are very well ordered.(probably have "strict" interpretations of the constitution as well.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 04:04 pm
Well, Foxfyre, as you are the guardian of all things politically correct, you can imagine how I view your 'contextualization'.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 04:07 pm
Foxfyre,
You just reinforce my point as the site you offer once again lists phony quotes such as this often repeated quote from James Madison that is a complete fabrication and became popular with the religious right through David Barton's book.

Quoting from your link
Quote:
With his intimate knowledge of the Constitution, he surely would have known if there was an intent to separate Christianity from the Constitution or from government. Yet he declared: "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the whole future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 04:19 pm
Foxfyre,
You use the term "politically correct rather disparagingly. I look at it as a matter of politeness. Were I to be less politically correct I would more often use the term superstition rather than religion, as Thomas Jefferson did here.
Quote:
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 06:01 pm
I'm not going to argue the definition of PC or politeness with ehBeth who has often enough advised me I don't know anything with the implication that I should not be commenting, or with Mesquite who completely missed the point of my post. How about we do not highjack the thread out of courtesy?

When the discussion relates to the topic, I will comment. Otherwise adieu for now.

Diane, I would like to say, did address the topic with an interesting take on it. Now that would be interesting to discuss.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 06:34 pm
Just one more offering from me also. The full Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists can be seen here.
Final letter as sent

There is also a draft of the letter which shows that Jefferson labored over getting the right words. The phrasing wall of separation was not just a spur of the moment thing. In fact in the draft version he used the phrase "eternal wall of separation". The draft can be seen here.
The draft and recently discovered text

There is also an article about how the FBI aided in restoring the draft
FBI Helps Restore Jefferson's Obliterated Draft.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 11:11 pm
Now back to wandeljw's question concerning Iraq, democracy and separation of state. Since those likely to be the new leaders of Iraq have already stated that the new constitution should be in accordance with Islamic law, perhaps we should explore what that means.

The following are excerpts from an essay that can be found here.

Islamic Law: Myths and Realities

Much more is contained in the entire essay.

Quote:
The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government.


Quote:
Islamic law is known as Shariah Law, and Shariah means the path to follow God's Law. Shar'iah Law is holistic or eclectic in its approach to guide the individual in most daily matters. Shariah Law controls, rules and regulates all public and private behaviour. It has regulations for personal hygiene, diet, sexual conduct, and elements of child rearing. It also prescribes specific rules for prayers, fasting, giving to the poor, and many other religious matters. Civil Law and Common Law primarily focus on public behaviour, but both do regulate some private matters.


Quote:
Crimes under Islamic Law can be broken down into three major categories. Each will be discussed in greater detail with some common law analogies. The three major crime categories in Islamic Law are:

1. Hadd [plural Hudud] Crimes (most serious).
2. Tazir Crimes (least serious).
3. Qesas Crimes (revenge crimes restitution).


Quote:
Hadd crimes are those which are punishable by a pre-established punishment found in the Qur'an. These most serious of all crimes are found by an exact reference in the Qur'an to a specific act and a specific punishment for that act. There is no plea-bargaining or reducing the punishment for a Hadd crime. Hadd crimes have no minimum or maximum punishments attached to them. The punishment system is comparable to the determinate sentence imposed by some judges in the United States. If you commit a crime, you know what your punishment will be. There is no flexibility in the U.S. determinate model or in the punishment for Hadd crimes of Islamic Law.

No judge can change or reduce the punishment for these serious crimes. The Hadd crimes are:

1. Murder;
2. Apostasy from Islam

1. (making war upon Allah and His messengers)
1. Theft
2. Adultery
3. Defamation

2. (false accusation of adultery or fornication)
1. Robbery
2. Alcohol-drinking [any intoxicants]

The first four Hadd crimes have a specific punishment in the Qur'an. The last three crimes are mentioned but no specific punishment is found (Schmalleger, p.603).

Some more liberal Islamic judges do not consider apostasy from Islam or wine drinking as Hadd crimes. The more liberal Islamic nations treat these crimes as Tazir or a lesser crime.


It is not clear to me how a liberal judge can change the degree of crime for apostasy (leaving the religion) when it is proscribed in the Koran. Must be through the magic of interpretation. It is unconscionable in my view that apostasy can be considered a capital crime.

In any event it would indeed appear that democracy will be hard pressed under the shackles of shariah.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 07:21 am
Iraq currently has a transitional constitution that will remain in effect until the new national assembly creates a permanent constitution.

The transitional constitution does contain democratic principles such as in the following provision:
"All Iraqis are equal in their rights without regard to gender, sect, opinion, belief, nationality, religion, or origin, and they are equal before the law. Discrimination against an Iraqi citizen on the basis of his gender, nationality, religion, or origin is prohibited. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of his person. No one may be deprived of his life or liberty, except in accordance with legal procedures. All are equal before the courts."

Whether democratic principles survive in the permanent constitution may depend on the degree to which the permanent constitution relies on Islamic law.
0 Replies
 
hyper426
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 06:24 pm
You know, the hardest thing about this is...morals differ from culture to culture, and you want government to be moral, don't you? Then how can we morally overide their morals with our own, just because we believe we are right? What if they are right? How can one ever know? hmmm...I think I am confusing myself, what about ya'll?
0 Replies
 
 

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