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Open Forum?

 
 
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 11:29 pm
The forum is now open for discussion. No, it's not. AndÂ… this is especially true when our country is on the verge of a culture war. Political views are increasingly becoming polarized in our country, and tending toward hostility. News reports from the American heartland relate that political signs supporting both candidates have been "stolen and defaced." Homes displaying signs supporting the presidential incumbent have had "large swastikas burned into their lawns" with grass killer. After mentioning that his deceased wife supported Kerry for president one man's telephone answering machine received a message stating, " ... hopefully, on the day that Bush gets elected, she'll burn in hell." (AP, 2004). People are angry in the West too. FoxNews and Commentary reported that a history professor out West told his students, "Republicans are going to burn in hell." Often I wonder, what motivates people to attack the views, persons, and property of others? People seem to forget that each and every one of us holds a world view that is precious to us. Personal paradigms run along a spectrum ranging from the "far left" to the "far right." Since our country is beginning to fractionalize people need to keep in mind that while "they" have a belief system "they" must be careful how "they" express it in public. Not only are political views diverse, but so are religious and moral views. Each forum for discussion is comprised of a myriad of views and hate of another person's personal paradigm ought not to be espoused, even in its most subtlest forms. Therefore, we need to be moderate when debating hot topics keeping in mind that the America Constitution grants each and every one of us the right to free speech, and freedom of religious philosophy or moral philosophy.

People might try to be universally centric. Having a parallaxic view enables a centrist to recognize divergent and diverse political and religious views. Someone with "far left" or "far right" leaning should keep in mind that their extreme view prevents them from clearly seeing another side of an issue. Additionally, the subjective experience of the extremist tends to cause them to associate with like-minded individuals. After the presidential elections, many students and professors on campus were angry and disappointed over the loss of the presidential challenger. Discussions were held in many classes. During these discussions, students and professors gravitated toward those with similar views. There is nothing abnormal about this behavior because we all tend to associate with people who share our world view. However, this natural behavior can impact a public discussion. The people holding the collectively larger worldview can over power and shut down an otherwise open discussion. Individuals with an opposing or alternate view will quickly recognize that they cannot express their voice without fear because the forum is biased.

What is the best way for to express one's voice on hot topics? Recently, a discussion took place about a pharmacist who wouldn't dispense contraceptives because of his religious beliefs. The pharmacist was a devout Catholic. His attorney argued before the licensing board that "no state law or policy addresses pharmacist's conscientious objections to dispensing medicine and any punishment would violate (the pharmacist's) first amendment rights" (AP, 2004). Should we immediately trample upon the pharmacist religious views? Would we want our precious personal paradigm trashed publicly? Is it appropriate to condemn the religious or moral views of others in a country founded on religious and moral freedom? I'll let you decided. What we can do is stick to the facts of any matter. We can ask, did the pharmacist have a duty to the patron? Did the pharmacist forward the prescription? We could argue and debate whether forwarding the prescription is a violation of ones conscious without condemning the conscientious objector.

The America Constitution grants each and every one of us the right to free speech. However, we are not compelled to exercise our right, especially at the expense of others. We need to keep in mind that when someone else openly and honestly expresses their religious or political views they lay themselves bear to public scrutiny and attack. Open and honest communication is not an occasion to attack the values of another individual. We certainly would not want someone else to come along and deconstruct and stomp all over our precious paradigm after we laid our selves open for the kill. There is no freedom where people live in fear, and there can be no freedom of speech where there is fear in the forum.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 984 • Replies: 14
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 11:45 pm
Nice post, that. Especially the last paragraph.
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Lady J
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 11:52 pm
Kudo's to you, BadCzech. That was truly well thought out and beautifully executed. I cannot think of one thing I could disagree upon with you.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 11:56 pm
I disagree with the premise of the post. It is censure of certain censure while confusing censure is censorship.

Censure is not censorship, and if it were the post merely advocates an exchange from one type to another.

That being said, I think the ideals are noble, just logically flawed if you invoke free speech.

After all, stomping on the views of others would necessarily be a part of protected free speech.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:00 am
Yes, but a part we needn't feel obliged to exercise at every opportunity.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:04 am
Amen.
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BadCzech
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:51 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
I disagree with the premise of the post. It is censure of certain censure while confusing censure is censorship.

Censure is not censorship, and if it were the post merely advocates an exchange from one type to another.

That being said, I think the ideals are noble, just logically flawed if you invoke free speech.

After all, stomping on the views of others would necessarily be a part of protected free speech.


Just becuase I have a right to free speech, I am under no obligation to exercise my right at the expense of others. What I find amsuing is that some people like to stomp all over others while holding the cards telling their own personal view close to their chests. Another sort of individual thinks it perfectly suitable to publically proclaim their own views while attempting to bar the free speech of others. This type reminds me of Orwell's remark, some pigs are better than other pigs. Their attitude is ...I can exercise my rights, but not you.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:02 am
BadCzech,

I'm not defending stomping on people's views. But if you censure this activity as being against free speech (it isn't) you create an irony in which you censure a particular brand of censure.
0 Replies
 
BadCzech
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:12 am
Craven de Kere

I'm interested in your point of view could you please elaborate with a few examples.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:22 am
It's basically just a common confusion of censure and censorship.

You are censuring a certain brand of censure ("stomping on" other's views). However to do so is not censorship, merely censure (i.e. what you are doing).
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BadCzech
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:32 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
It's basically just a common confusion of censure and censorship.

You are censuring a certain brand of censure ("stomping on" other's views). However to do so is not censorship, merely censure (i.e. what you are doing).



Alright then please allow me to play with this thought a little bit here. Why is it that leftys will stomp on theists saying that they cannot express their views publicly, while condemining others. This type of censuring is frequently tolerated and accepted. Or....another example, at UCSF 3 republican students were taken into custody for handing out flyers because a very large group of PLO (Palestinian) students objected and threatened their lives with death and violence. Why were the three peaceful student arrested (censorship)? What is going on in society?
It seems that only one group has the freedom to speak.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:36 am
BadCzech wrote:

Why is it that leftys ....


I merely wished to point out incorrect use of the concept of censorship and free speech, not take up your issues with political groups so I'll have to leave your questions for others to take on.
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BadCzech
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:47 am
Leftys...simply because this seems to be the censuring group in this neck of the woods. I would not mind hearing other points of view or examples.

In fact , I am inviting other examples and perspectives.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 09:35 am
BadCzech wrote:
Why is it that leftys will stomp on theists saying that they cannot express their views publicly, while condemining others. This type of censuring is frequently tolerated and accepted.

You need to provide more details. What views were these theists attempting to express? What was the forum?

BadCzech wrote:
Or....another example, at UCSF 3 republican students were taken into custody for handing out flyers because a very large group of PLO (Palestinian) students objected and threatened their lives with death and violence. Why were the three peaceful student arrested (censorship)?

I'm sure that no one here could offer an informed opinion as to why those three were arrested, unless, of course, they were as familiar with the incident as you seem to be. Do you have any links to news coverage of this event, or can you provide more details regarding the incident?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 02:35 am
Re: Open Forum?
BadCzech wrote:
What is the best way for to express one’s voice on hot topics? Recently, a discussion took place about a pharmacist who wouldn't dispense contraceptives because of his religious beliefs. The pharmacist was a devout Catholic. His attorney argued before the licensing board that “no state law or policy addresses pharmacist's conscientious objections to dispensing medicine and any punishment would violate (the pharmacist’s) first amendment rights” (AP, 2004). Should we immediately trample upon the pharmacist religious views? Would we want our precious personal paradigm trashed publicly? Is it appropriate to condemn the religious or moral views of others in a country founded on religious and moral freedom? I’ll let you decided. What we can do is stick to the facts of any matter. We can ask, did the pharmacist have a duty to the patron? Did the pharmacist forward the prescription? We could argue and debate whether forwarding the prescription is a violation of ones conscious without condemning the conscientious objector.

The America Constitution grants each and every one of us the right to free speech. However, we are not compelled to exercise our right, especially at the expense of others. We need to keep in mind that when someone else openly and honestly expresses their religious or political views they lay themselves bear to public scrutiny and attack. Open and honest communication is not an occasion to attack the values of another individual. We certainly would not want someone else to come along and deconstruct and stomp all over our precious paradigm after we laid our selves open for the kill. There is no freedom where people live in fear, and there can be no freedom of speech where there is fear in the forum.


Your first paragraphs condemned violence aimed at others in retaliation for their political views. We all condemn violence. It's against the law. Although some person might be a racist -- and may constitutionally espouse his racist views no matter how offensive his views may be -- he may NOT place a cross on someone's lawn and set it afire. When people resort to violence or terror or true threats, they are violating criminal laws and hopefully they will be held accountable to the law.

People have the right to disagree. The right to voice dissent is one of the greatest, most liberating rights we have in this country. See Watts v. United States, 394 U.S. 705 (1969). Whenever speech (in whatever form it takes) is penalized, the language of the statute must be interpreted "against the background of a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials." New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 270 (1964).

With respect to the pharmacist, he is entitled to his religious views. The law does not penalize him for his deeply-held religious views. He was not required by law to dispense birth control. The American Pharmacists Association recognizes a pharmacist's right to refuse to dispense medications because of moral beliefs. However, when the pharmacist refused to fill the prescription for birth control, he also refused to give the patient back her prescription. The patient went to another pharmacy. When the pharmacist at the next pharmacy called the first pharmacist to get the prescription, he refused to give it up.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14189


The pharmacist was brought before the licensing board -- NOT for his refusal to fill the prescription due to his religious beliefs -- but for his refusal to transfer the prescription to another pharmacy / pharmacist or to inform the patient of other ways she could get her medication when he refused to fill the prescription and refused to release the prescription to another pharmacy / pharmacist.

The prescription didn't belong to the pharmacist who refused to fill it and who refused to give it up to another pharmacist who would fill it -- the prescription belonged to the patient.

Freedom of speech / freedom of religion is a two way street. No one was forcing the pharmacist to fill the prescription. But, his religious beliefs did not give him the right to prevent the young woman from taking her prescription and going to another pharmacy. A person's right to hold religious beliefs or moral convictions does not give that person the right to impose those religious beliefs or moral convictions on others. The pharmacist was not simply a "conscientious objector," he was taking action that prevented the woman from excercising her constitutionally-protected right to privacy to determine her own procreative destiny.

The pharmacist is not facing discipline because of his religious beliefs, he is facing discipline because of his CONDUCT.

If a person practiced his religion by throwing virgins into a volcano where they meet an untimely and violent death and that person is arrested for murder -- could he defend the murder charge by claiming he was excercising his freedom of religion protected by the First Amendment? The answer is NO.

You need to put the exercise of constitutionally-protected rights into proper perspective.

Most people do not condemn freedom of speech -- most people do not condemn the freedom of religion -- most people condemn those who attempt to impose their views upon others through violence, through holier-than-thou attitudes, through unlawful conduct, or through the ill-fated enactment of laws that deprive others of equal protection under the law.
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