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When White Women hide behind Racial Minorities.

 
 
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2017 08:03 pm
One of the arguments made in the Google Memo controversy is that if he was talking about "Blacks" rather than women, people would have been more outraged. Given our history and culture with race in the US, this is a pretty obscene comment. This is also not the only time the comparison between race and gender has been made. There are many examples where the experience of White women have been compared to slavery.

There is no comparison.

White women have always been privileged in Western Culture.

Now let me be clear. Women in Western Culture were denied political power. Yes, there was violence (although wealthy women had status and protection, and if you were poor you faced violence period.) For centuries women were protected in war. They were save first on the Titanic (women were 50% more likely to survive the Titanic disaster than men).

But this is Western Culture. White Women had access to wealth, medical care, security, housing. White women owned and benefitted from slavery. White women have always been the second most privileged demographic in the Western World.

Racial Minorities have been horribly treated in Western Culture

I don't need to say this here. Black men were brutalized in the United States. Black Women were brutalized in the United States. Native American men and women were abused and eliminated. Asian men were used to build railroads, Asian women were abused and Excluded.

White Women benefited economically from slavery.

Gender is not race.

Every culture has some idea of gender. Gender is a biological fact... the role of gender has always been a core part of cultural identity. In every culture, even indigenous cultures with polygamy and gender-specific coming of age rituals, women have been considered part of the tribe. In the "us versus them" women have always been considered us.

When you define a "race" you are defining someone who is not part of "us". In America, women were considered Americans... to be valued and protected. Black people were considered slaves, and when they were free they were outsiders. Native Americans were to be feared as primitive. Mexicans, Asians were always outsiders with no rights and no dignity.

Saving Indigenous Women from their own culture

Western culture has developed distinct ideas about men and women. Our modern ideas are unique historically. We invented them. But along with this we invented a narrative that men from other cultures; African, Asian, Indigenous oppressed women.

The modern narrative leads to an uncomfortable place, where White People need to Save Indigenous Women from their own cultures. When White Women usurp the cultures of Indigenous women in order to further their modern Western Narrative, it disregards the indigenous cultures.

And is where this discussion always ends up.

When White Suffragettes opposed Civil Rights

The time of the Suffragettes was an uncomfortable time in history. Many of the Suffragettes specifically (with ugly language) opposed the right to vote for African Americans. Many of them openly saw black men as a threat.

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/25/134849480/the-root-how-racism-tainted-womens-suffrage

The Issue

In this thread, I again attack liberal ideology... this will likely end ugly, but I can take it. Piercing an ideological bubble is never pretty. I support women's rights in many areas; equal pay, abortion rights, etc. However, I think that we need to be humble about this. We are looking at things through a Modern Western lens and even liberals need to acknowledge their prejudice.





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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,950 • Replies: 56

 
Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2017 11:17 pm
@maxdancona,
Maybe suffragettes sometimes wrote ugly racist tracts because the early 20th century in which they were most prominent was an extremely racist period. In a country that was 90% white, they were probably no more racist than any other white group. The Ku Klux Klan was considered a legit group back then.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  9  
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2017 11:32 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
When you define a "race" ...

...women have been considered part of the tribe. In the "us versus them"
women have always been considered us.


Except for many a year when it came to voting rights, education rights, marital rights... Or when it came to job opportunities or equal pay... In many situations it's still not equal.

No, the Caucasian woman cannot be equally compared to the black woman, but, make no mistake here maxdancona, they've not been considered as a real part of the "us" group in most situations.

Change, unfortunately takes just about forever to happen and there are many missteps and back steps along the road to getting there.
izzythepush
 
  6  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2017 03:56 am
This thread should be called, 'When woman hating bigots try to justify their bigotry,' because that's all this **** is.
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Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2017 06:52 pm
@maxdancona,
So what's the point of all this? Even if we grant your point that "White women have always been the second most privileged demographic in the Western World", most of the time there was a big gap between the most privileged (white man), and second most privileged, (white women).

So somehow, this makes women pursuing fairness and equality less justified?

It's like Ukraine, Eastern Europe and Russia. Russia took over Ukraine after WWI and made it part of the Russian controlled Soviet Union-Ukraine was actually part of the same country Russia was in. Then Russia took over Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc, and instead of absorbing them outright, installed puppet governments which were entirely beholden to Moscow. If they stepped out of line, in rolled the Russian tanks to bring them back to heel. Then, in 1991, the Russian economy collapsed of its own accord, Russia couldn't afford to pay its own army, (much less order them into battle), and both the captive puppets in Eastern Europe and Ukraine got away from Russia. Does that make Ukraine any less of an independent state than Poland, Hungary, etc?

I don't see how.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2017 07:42 pm
@Blickers,
You are missing the point completely. I have never said at all that "women pursuing justice and equality" isn't justified.

The point is that the role of gender in culture is completely different from the role of race. There have often been no laws protecting people of other races... there have always been laws protecting White women.

And so the comparisons between White women and racial minorities are not valid.

I don't really understand your point about Russia. Women in Europe in 1500s, or in the US in the 1600s weren't occupied. They considered themselves as completely part of their cultures.. they were mothers, wives and daughter. They made economic decisions, had access to housing, enjoyed going to the theater. I am not saying that the woman's rights movement that sprung up in Western culture was unjustified.

I am only saying that it is not valid compare that to racial minorities that were never part of the culture, never had access to the economic resources of the culture, never had laws protecting them and were enslaved and killed.

It is a false narrative.




0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Wed 16 Aug, 2017 01:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Why are you distinguishing between white women and women of other racial groups?
Quote:
White women have always been privileged in Western Culture

Yup, the white women gassed in the Nazi concentration camp death chambers were certainly privileged and protected, weren't they?

You are peddling bull ****, which is why I cited the above example.

You are making a highly subjective--and biased view--of which groups have suffered the most--gender or racial-=simply to discredit the views/experiences of disadvantage/oppression/discrimination voiced by white women. That's a not very subtle attempt to try to shut white women up--to negate or downplay or disparage their complaints. This is based on what--your superior perception as a white male? Smile

Women--as a gender--have been discriminated against and disadvantaged--and they definitely do not need to "hide behind racial minorities"--gender crosses all racial (and ethnic) boundaries. Racial groups have been discriminated against and disadvantaged. Religious groups have been discriminated against and disadvantaged. Ethnic groups have been discriminated against and disadvantaged. And members of all of those groups are more than entitled to complain of mistreatment, or victimization, or disadvantage, if they feel it is warranted to set the record straight or correct injustice, inequality, or unfairness. That includes white women. Smile

I feel it is quite juvenile of you to try to compare the suffering of various groups to each other, particularly since your main motive appears to be an attempt to try to silence or muffle white women (maybe because you see women of other racial groups as less threatening to yourself, and white men in general, so you don't even have to bother with them).

Quote:
They were save first on the Titanic (women were 50% more likely to survive the Titanic disaster than men

Not because the were deemed more worthy as human beings, but because women were considered more necessary for the care of children--since the care of children was almost exclusively done by women . Are you also objecting to the fact they tried to save children before they did adults?

By the kind of logic you are using against white women, white men really aren't entitled to complain about any mistreatment/disadvantage/discrimination because they have always been in the dominant power structure--and that lack of entitlement holds true even when other gender and racial groups gain in societal advantage and power, as is occurring now..
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Wed 16 Aug, 2017 02:18 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
In this thread, I again attack liberal ideology...

Are you sure you're not just promoting alt-right views of gender--particularly of white women?
Quote:

The alt-right’s stance on gender equality is also based on a rejection of historical fact. The movement is full of men’s rights activists (MRAs) who believe men have always been the more oppressed gender. That’s right. They think women ― who couldn’t vote, own property or credit cards, get a divorce or work outside the home ― were privileged compared to men, who had to earn money and fight in wars.

It’s impossible to discuss women’s rights, misogyny or sexual violence with a group that denies how the economic and political systems created by men treat women as second-class citizens. There’s no reasoning with anyone who thinks the goal of feminism is to persecute the male species.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/its-pointless-to-try-and-reason-with-the-alt-right_us_586d4218e4b0eb58648ba313

As I recall, in other threads, you have tried to downplay the degree of sexual assault experienced by women.

And, it's not coincidental that James Damore, the writer of that Google memo has become a new hero for the alt-right.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  5  
Reply Wed 16 Aug, 2017 02:20 pm
@firefly,
Why are you dignifying this bullshit with a response?

Obvious troll is obviously trolling.
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Aug, 2017 02:24 pm
@DrewDad,
You are quite right.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 16 Aug, 2017 03:28 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Yup, the white women gassed in the Nazi concentration camp death chambers were certainly privileged and protected, weren't they?


This one statement says everything. The Nazis did not target White Women.

This is not only a logically flawed argument, it is an offensive one.

firefly
 
  7  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 07:21 am
@maxdancona,
Look, you made an absurd, and erroneous assumption---"White women have always been privileged in Western Culture"--and I gave you a perfect example where that was not the case. Being Caucasian did not protect or privilege women in Nazi Germany...if they happened to be Jewish.

Being shown up might be embarrassing, but it's hardly "offensive"--well to no one but you. Smile Put on your big boy pants and deal with it.

Better yet, knock off your bigoted bull ****.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 07:59 am
@firefly,
Firefly you are being ridiculous. The Nazis were based on racial supremacy. They killed people based on their race.

White women were Nazis. The women who joined the Nazi party, promoted the Nazi party, worked for the Nazi administration and wrote propaganda for the Nazi party then the men who did the same. Women were convicted of committing atrocities at concentration camps.

It is the same thing with slavery in the US. White women (just like White men) owned slaves, promoted slavery and profited from slavery. Comparing any experience of White women to what Slaves endured is obscene (considering that many White women were part of the slaveholding system.)

This really is a ridiculous and offensive argument you are making. I don't think even DrewDad will back you up on this one (although he is wisely slinking away).
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 08:28 am
@maxdancona,
DrewDad is quite right, to respond to you is to dignify your bull ****, something it clearly doesn't merit.

I have already given you more time and attention than your half-assed biased ramblings deserve.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 09:22 am
@maxdancona,
I am curious if there is anyone here (on the liberal side) who will even admit that White Women do in fact have White privilege.

This unflinching adherence to an ideological narrative in the face of history really goes to the point I am making.
Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2017 07:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Max:

The fact that one oppressed group might have been given privileges over another oppressed group does not mean they themselves weren't oppressed.

The European immigrants who founded the American labor movement in the early 20th century were actually extended white privilege in terms of jobs, in that they would be hired before black men would be. That doesn't mean they weren't burdened with oppressive working conditions, they were. Or mean that they didn't have the right to form unions to oppose these conditions, they did.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 09:50 am
@Blickers,
Read the OP again Blickers. You are not disagreeing with anything that I have said.

I don't think you are saying that the trials of Irish men and women compare in any way to the brutality faced by men and women in slavery, or by Native American men and women. Everyone has faced oppression... the origin story of the Puritans was a story of fleeing from oppression.
Blickers
 
  5  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2017 09:32 pm
@maxdancona,
No, the trials of white men and women do not compare to the trials of black men and women. But every group that is treated unfairly has the right to stick up for itself. The question is, is a group treated unfairly, and if so, how do we go about remedying the situation.

If we follow your reasoning, every group with a legit grievance will be told to just shut up and go to the back of the line because blacks still receive unfair treatment. Sorry, no. Justice should be for all.
 

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