Who were the Prophets?

Snood, when I was a kid in Baptist Sunday School, we memorized all sixty six books of the Bible. I didn't, of course, understand one of them, but now that I think about your thread, I did a check on the net and came up with an interesting site.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/P/prophets.html

I was always taken with Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech predicting his own assassination. It still seems a bit eerie to me. I will continue to follow this thread, because I am very curious about what others will say.

The word prophet in English is attached to the idea of prophesy, but in the bible there are different types of prophets. Some of them go into ecstatic fits. Some of them give level-headed advice. Some of them criticize the masses or the leadership. Some of them speak in esoteric language.

But based on your idea of prophesy, I don't know. Maybe some people are able to tap into something so that they can speak to the future, or are tapped into. And maybe they're just speaking to the type of events that are either extremely vague and common or extremely desirable.

Dauer

Dauer:


"my idea" of prophecy? Pray, what might that be?

I thought I was just asking what everyone else thought of those individuals whom history or legend has labeled 'prophet'.

Sorry, I thought you meant people who were said to have had the gift of prophesy, i.e. were able to predict the future. That's what most people seem to mean when they say prophet. But in reality to say somebody is a prophet can mean many different things and some of them don't appear to have anything to do with the rest, like the ones who would go into ecstatic fits.

I guess the only way to connect them all is to say it was assumed that each one of them had a more direct contact with God in one way or another.

Dauer

Well, maybe for those of us who believe in God that kind of explanation will do. How about those of you who don't? Who do you think those men who called themselves messengers of God were? Madmen? Powermongers? Do you see redeeming value in them, besides serving up the "opiates of the masses"?

Snood, I do remember this from Isaiah:

Here ye o house of David,
There shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse,
And a flower shall rise up out of his root.

Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
A child is born to us,
And a son is given to us,
And his name shall be called Emanuel.

The prophecy and the annuciation.

Oh....kay......

I believe in God but I also believe it's possible some of the prophets were mentally ill. Now we'd call it bipolar disorder or schyzophrenia or something else. Back then if someone walked around naked for three years and said God talked to them it was acceptable. I also believe that we may actually be wrong in the way we approach some mental illness and that calling it such may be false.

One of the portrayals of the ecstatic prophets casts them in a negative light, when Saul is compared to them, but this can also be viewed as polemic against Saul by either David's or Solomon's scribes. Because later in the Davidic history David is shown leading cultic practices and engaging in similar actions without the negative portrayal by the narrator.

In case you didn't notice, in my post before I said it is assumed they had direct contact with God. I don't know if it's true or not.

Dauer

So, I take it if you think the odds are good they were just crazy, you then also pretty much discount any credit they're given for the good parts of our society?

Not really.

a) I don't think odds are good they were crazy. I think in some cases it's a possibility.

b) I think it's entirely possible our definition of what is crazy is wrong and denies a valid experience of reality that may tap into the Divine.

c) Even if they did have a mental illness, which is much different than being plain crazy, that does not mean they couldn't also do good. It is those with mental irregularities who contribute the most to society as far as growth goes, people whose minds don't work quite the same as everyone else's. Those with "normal" minds do "normal" things, like plowing fields and milking goats, raising children, etc.

Dauer

So, just for my clarity - what do you see as the difference (besides pc language) between mentally ill and crazy?

Crazy is a derogatory term that does not take into account the knowledge we now have that continues to grow about the way the mind works. I consider mentally ill derogatory as well because it suggests that the individual has something wrong with them when in fact they just think different from the rest of society. As long as this doesn't lead to illegal actions and as long as they can find happiness and stability, there's really nothing wrong with being "mentally ill."

Another problem with crazy is that it fails to recognize degrees of mental illness -- I use the term for lack of a better one. For instance, one individual could be bipolar their whole lives and never realize it while another must be heavily medicated and frequently restricted to a psychiatric hospital.

Crazy isn't nuanced at all. And I wouldn't call someone with dysthymia crazy. I would say they have a mental illness. The same is true for the many functioning people with Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, etc.

It sounds like you've just bought into society's given role at this point in time for mental illness. You may want to look back to point "c" of my previous. Those who are mentally ill and manage to find their niche in society are a great aide to progress. Look to point "b" as well. I believe some mental illness may actually be a way to engage with the Divine more easily. Imagine using shamanism to help schizophrenics embrace their experience and come through on the other end, bringing back the stories of their inner explorations.

Dauer

dauer:


That's sounds good, and it's very decent of you and everything, I'm sure - but the brain is flesh just like the rest of the body - subject to imbalance and illness, just like the rest of the body.



Well, I suppose if we accept your characterization of mental illness as just some misunderstood idiosycrasies or eccentricities, that could be true - but I happen to think humans get mentally ill just like they get physically ill - and that both are measurable and legitimate pathologies.



No need to beat it to death - I understand the word "crazy" is perjorative, and not nuanced - I was just trying to get clear on how you were using it.



All due respect, but it 'sounds' to me as if you can't read, if you inferred that from what I said.



Well, at least this finally attempts to address my question about whether or not the prophets had something of worth to give to society, or were just insane.



If it's all the same, I'll leave that for someone else to imagine.

Dauer

Snood

And there certainly are some things that qualify as illness. There are other things that are just a variation in brain chemistry.




I agree. I just think our current approach is missing the mark by labeling any psychological irregularities as an illness. What if we lived in a world where anyone with a gift for athletics was medicated to make them weak?

It's all a matter of perspective.




Are you sure? It seems like you've made it quite clear that when it comes to this issue you walk the same path most everyone else is being herded into.



Not really. I was just referring back to the points you'd missed in my previous post.

Dauer

Are we talking about prophets any more?

A prophet is a man chosen by God to be His messenger and spokesman on earth. He learns the truth from God directly (i.e. visions, burning bushes, the Holy Spirit, etc), and then teaches the rest of the people.

A false prophet is a man chosen by himself or by the people or by Lucifer to teach the philosophies of men (mingled with truth) and create confusion.

The real question is: How do we discern between the two?

--MrMcPlad

If we're going by scripture as it seems you are, it's very simple:

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!7quot; [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst. (Artscroll)

If a prophet say to worship a god the Israelites did not know, even if he provides signs, that is a false prophet and must be killed. Continuing:

Deuteronomy 18:15 A prophet from your midst, from your brethren, like me, shall HASHEM, your G-d, establish for you to him shall you hearken. [16] According to all that you asked of HASHEM, your G-d, in Horeb on the day of the congregation, saying, "I can no longer hear the voice of HASHEM, my G-d, and this great fire I can no longer see, so that I shall not die." [17] Then HASHEM said to me: They have done well in what they have said. [18] I will establish a prophet for them from among their brethren, like you, and I will place My words in his mouth; He shall speak to them everything that I will command him. [19] And it shall be that the man who will not hearken to My words that he shall speak in My name, I will exact from him, [20] But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods of others that prophet shall die. [21] When you say in your heart, "How can we know the word that HASHEM has not spoken?" [22] If the prophet will speak in the Name of HASHEM and that thing will not occur and not come about that is the word that HASHEM has not spoken; with willfulness has the prophet spoken it, you should not fear him. (Artscroll)

So if a prophet says something that does not agree with what has already been said, he is a false prophet. If a prophet predicts something and it does not come, he is a false prophet.

It's actually very easy to discern between the two. Does it disagree with Torah? Does it suggest worship of some form of god other than what was already known? Are any of the predictions false? If you have answered yes to any of these questions, it's a false prophet.

But I'm not, and Snood doesn't seem to be, going strictly by the biblical definition. Feel free to discuss scripture with me though. I enjoy it.

Dauer

Prophet is a very specific term. When discussing this idea in Western society, it is based on the Torah definitions of what a prophet is... It is scriptural.
When a person mentions Jesus and Mohammad, it veers away from the scriptual and into a new religion with different definitions.
So, I would propose that the question would be: were these men (or women) imbued with a special relationship with G-d? Were they, in effect, holy men? Or were they just nutbars hearing voices?

If we evaluate a person by the effect they had on the world, then it would seem that those men who claimed a relationship with G-d and changed the world forever, were indeed holy men.
From Moshe Rabbeinu to Guatama Buddha to Joan of Arc to Mahatama Ghandi and Martin Luther King, there seem to be individuals who claimed a deep spiritual insight who literally created a new understanding of man's relationship to G-d.
And, I don't think there is much doubt that these types of individuals were crazy - because the world defines what is sane and what is not.
How could a person overthrow the boundries that are set between Man and G-d and not be considered crazy?
Nonetheless, all human progress; all human understanding; all human meaning; comes from such individuals.

Thanks for trying to answer my launch post question, Moishe. I just wanted to get some feedback from those who don't necessarily believe in any divinity about who or what they thought the prophets were.

Put simply, a prophet is one who has advanced spiritually and will have the ability to bear a message that will result in the advancement of mankind. Having the "ability" would mean, I think, there is strength, power, imagination, love, wisdom, enthusiasm, will, and faith manifested in this person to keep him/her on a very straight and narrow path. Jesus, for example, and certainly Muhammad, Buda. These people generally have a following, or group of disciples who in some way care for them, assist them. Martin Luther King was no doubt a prophet.

dauer, I thought mental illness was caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain???? Or, maybe you mean should the messenger fail? If he/she had given in to the temptations of power, money, sex? "Prophets are not weak, and should they slip a little, the message can still be heard if honesty remains.