6
   

White Women vs Free Speech: And Google is going to get sued.

 
 
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 02:20 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm sure he's free to reapply to Google, and attempt to convince a different hiring manager.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 02:27 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You are wrong that gender and racial diversity equals ideological diversity, there are megachurches who are very diverse in terms of race and gender with very narrow views on sexuality and morality.

I find your logic to be sub-par, here.

1) I never said that gender and racial diversity equals ideological diversity. I don't believe that I used the word "ideology" at all.
2) Churches are pretty much the poster-child for selection bias.

maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 02:39 pm
@DrewDad,
You used the term "groupthink". I was using "ideological diversity" as the opposite of that. I am suggesting that supporting ideological diversity is a good thing in an engineering organization. Google has said that they want employees to feel safe expressing differing opinions.

My point is that racial and gender diversity do not ensure ideological diversity.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 02:45 pm
Quote:
Can you please define what you mean by "freedom of expression?"

Nobody censored the expression of his opinion


This guy was fired after he expressed his opinion. I don't know how you are saying that "nobody censored the expression of his opinion". You can bet that other employees are feeling censored... they are going think twice before expressing any opinion about gender or the diversity efforts at Google.

By "Freedom of Expression" I mean the ability to express unpopular ideas without the fear of being punished. Obviously this is a spectrum in any real world organization. There are statements that would be illegal, or that no organization would tolerate. And then there are statements that would be safe to say in any professional organization. The question is the statements in between these two extremes.

Any time you fire someone for expressing an opinion, you are reducing the number of opinions that someone can feel safe expressing without fear of punishment.

When Google fires someone for what they post, the result is the people are going to be more careful about what opinions they post. This will inevitably stifle expression of certain opinions.
ossobucotemp
 
  5  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:23 pm
@DrewDad,
I agree w/you all the way, including that I scoff at Max and his new favorite word to bat around, ideology. That is so insulting.
I agree with E. Grogan too, while I'm at it.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:27 pm
@ossobucotemp,
If you scoff at the word "ideology", what word would you rather I use to mean a system of beliefs or ideals held by a group of people?

I think it is the correct word to use.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:31 pm
@DrewDad,
He just doesn't get the concepts of prior restraint, free speech or protected speech.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:36 pm
@ossobucotemp,
Quote:
I agree with E. Grogan too


Osso, can you clarify this? Do you really believe that hate speech isn't protected under the First Amendment?

I would be a little surprised if you agreed with E. Grogan about this. That doesn't seem like something you would have a problem with. I am pretty sure that DrewDad disagrees with E. Grogan on this (although I will let him speak for himself if he doesn't).

Of course, within a private business such as Google, the First Amendment doesn't apply. The legal aspect of this revolves around employee rights.

emmett grogan
 
  5  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:39 pm
@maxdancona,


Dozens Arrested on Hate Speech Charges

by Belson Wissels
Skinnyreporter.com

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — An agnostic gay activist was arrested at 12:01 a.m. Monday when he was overheard saying that heterosexual Catholics harm the planet.

He thus became the first American charged under the Language and Overt Vitriolic Expression (LOVE) Act of 2010, which went into effect at midnight. President Barack Obama signed the act into law with little fanfare last month as the nation's attention was focused on health insurance reform.

Based on the failed Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Act of 2009, the LOVE Act was patterned after Britain's Public Order Act, which has been employed by law enforcement officers in the UK to prevent citizens from expressing disagreement with the lifestyles of others.

Benjamin "Ben" Dover, a full-time lobbyist for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Dalliance (GLAD), was still in jail this morning when his "wife," Dallas Short, was unable come up with enough money to post the $1,000 bail.

"I had $999," Short said, "and that wasn't quite enough. Can you spare a buck?"

This reporter agreed to make up the difference in exchange for an exclusive interview with Dover. An hour later Dover gave his side of the story at a coffee shop across the street from the Jackson County Jail.

"I didn't say that Catholics harm the planet," he said. "I said that Catholics who fail to use birth control contribute to the world's overpopulation problem, and their descendants harm the planet. I think that's a very clear distinction. My lawyer said he doesn't think the hate speech charge is going to stick because it's not people I hate; it's their actions."

Dover said he had fought for passage of the LOVE Act because he had thought it would be used to punish preachers who called homosexuals sinful.

"I clearly support punishing homophobes," he said. "I also think the law should be used to arrest, jail and fine racists as well as Christians who criticize atheists or even agnostics like me. What I really hate are Christian hypocrites."

At that point an undercover police officer approached, produced his badge, displayed a handheld digital recorder, identified himself as Lieutenant B. Eli Kreiss, and handcuffed Dover.

"You're going back to jail," he said. "You said you hate Christians and hypocrites. That's clearly against the law, which makes it a crime to use any expression that is quote, 'threatening, abusive or insulting.' "

Minutes later the county jail was crowded and noisy as officers worked to process dozens of newly arrested suspects. As they waited to have their fingerprints and mug shots taken, suspects complained about their nylon handcuff ties and protested their arrests.

"All I said was that the Seventh Day Adventist Church is a cult," said Agnes T. Ickman, a transvestite who wore a T-shirt that read, "Thank God I'm Agnostic."

He/she said she/he thought the U.S. Constitution protected free speech but couldn't afford to challenge the LOVE Act on his/her salary.

"The fine is only $365," she/he said. "I'll probably just pay it and watch my language more carefully from now on."

A black man wearing a purple suit, a lavender hat and white gloves sat meekly on a wooden bench, a length of silver gaffers tape over his mouth. Next to him was a young woman who appeared to be 18 to 20 years old, wearing fishnet stockings, a black miniskirt, false eyelashes, a red halter top and a badge that read, "Kansas City Police: Sgt. Dee Coye."

"We had to protect him from digging himself into too big a hole," Coye said. "I arrested him on a pandering charge for trying to be my pimp, but then you should have heard what he called me. Hate speech, for sure!"

An entire row of suspects who were lined up for mug shots wore the t shirts that precipitated their arrests. Words silk-screened on the shirts portrayed a variety of hate speech, including, "Religion Kills," "Bible Lies," "Barack, The Audacity of Hypocrisy," "Republicans Are Dumb," and "George Bush is Satan."

Two celebrities, who were in town for a televised debate scheduled for Monday evening, were being fingerprinted simultaneously.

Glenn Beck of Connecticut was arrested for allegedly calling the Reverend Al Sharpton a racist, while Michael Moore was arrested for allegedly mocking former General Motors CEO Roger Smith, former President George W. Bush and the most popular talk show host in America, Rush Limbaugh.

Authorities said they were seeking search warrants to find out who is posting hate speech on Michael Moore's web site, the Politico and the public comment section of the Salt Lake Tribune.

"On Moore's website somebody called Karl Rove a war criminal," said Indonesian-born language investigator Watshir Tung. "Not only is that against the LOVE Act, but it's also libel. Another guy called Sarah Palin an idiot, former President Jimmy Carter a coward, and the late Ronald Reagan a bumbling fool. We're committed to tracking down the criminals who perpetuate this abusive hate speech because we are dedicated to creating a kinder, gentler nation."

Obama's language czar, U. Faye Mizzem, warned Americans to clean up their language.

"The LOVE Act should present very few problems to most citizens if they choose their words carefully," she said. "We are publishing a new brochure, 'Politically Correct Term Guide,' which will be available online and at jails nationwide. The brochure lists words and terms that are not acceptable along with euphemisms that are permissible.

"For example, you can't say liberal, but you can say progressive. The N word, of course, is out, and we've ruled against colored as well as black. African-American is OK but could be banned in the future. Church is out; non-secular study area is OK. Global warming is out; climate change is in. You can't say stupid, but you can say, 'having an apparent inability to reach conclusions that seem self-evident to others.'

"The new motto is 'Speak well. Stay out of jail.'"
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:41 pm
@emmett grogan,
Emmett wrote:
Benjamin "Ben" Dover, a full-time lobbyist for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Dalliance (GLAD), was still in jail this morning when his "wife," Dallas Short, was unable come up with enough money to post the $1,000 bail.

"I had $999," Short said, "and that wasn't quite enough. Can you spare a buck?"


Do you really think this is a real news article Emmett?

(DrewDad or Osso.... I will let either of you explain it to him)

This is the problem when you google stuff to support your point of view and then post it without thinking about it.
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:41 pm
@maxdancona,

HIT & RUN BLOG
It Begins! Montana Man Being Prosecuted for 'Hate Speech' and Holocaust Denial
Well, this is terrifying.

Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Jun. 5, 2015 12:40 pm

Craig Sunter (CJS64)/FlickrCraig Sunter (CJS64)/FlickrVia Volokh Conspiracy, a disturbing criminal case out of Montana, where Flathead County resident David Lenio, 28, is being prosecuted for making disparaging remarks about Jews on Twitter and denying that the Holocaust happened.

Say what? While this sort of prosecution is common in parts of Europe, Americans enjoy the protection of the First Amendment, which contains no exception for what's colloquially known as "hate speech." The only permitted exceptions to free speech protections—as the Supreme Court recently re-articulated—are for obscenity, defamation, fraud, incitement, and "speech integral to criminal conduct."

As Eugene Volokh explains, defamation law is generally "limited to false factual assertions. It requires a showing that the speaker knows the statement is false, and isn’t just mistaken (reasonably or not). And it requires a statement about a particular person."

But under Montana's ridiculously broad defamation statute, "defamatory matter is anything that exposes a person or a group, class, or association to hatred, contempt, ridicule, degradation, or disgrace in society or injury to the person’s or its business or occupation." And anyone who "communicates any defamatory matter to a third person without the consent of the person defamed commits the offense of criminal defamation."

Here's a sample of the kind of things Lenio has been arrested for tweeting:

USA needs a Hitler to rise to power and fix our #economy and i’m about ready to give my life to the cause or just shoot a bunch of #kikes …

I hope someone goes on a massive killing spree in kalispell school because I'm so poor I can't afford housing and don't care about your kids.

Now that the holocaust has been proven to be a lie beyond a reasonable doubt, it is now time to hunt the Nazi hunters.

#Copenhagen It’s important to note that jews hate free speech & are known bullsh-ters, could be #falseFlag

Reasonable people may disagree on whether Lenio's assertion that he's going to shoot people constitutes a "true threat." (U.S. courts have recently been grappling with something similar in a case involving Facebook statements, although in that case the potential threats were directed at specific individuals.) But it's clear that if any illegal speech is at play here, it's the suggestion that Lenio might commit violence, right?

The Flathead County prosecutor's office, however, is charging Lenio not just for "intimidation" but also, independently, under the state's defamation statute. It argues that Lenio made defamatory statements about Jews by suggesting that they have degraded the economy and dislike free speech and by stating that the Holocaust was a lie.

Lenio's lawyer filed a motion to dismiss the charges on grounds that the statutes were unconstitutionally overbroad.* The state argued in response that "Lenio does not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that (the defamation law) is facially overbroad because it is not limited to cases against individuals or small groups of people" and he "does not establish how the statute reaches protected speech in a substantial number of cases."

Can we pause a second there? According to Montana proseutors, it's unimaginable how a law against voicing any negative opinion about any group of people could infringe on free speech in a substantial way.

This is not defamation as it's commonly understood. This is, as Volokh states, "that extraordinarily rare thing: an American prosecution for "hate speech." There's just one tiny problem: "The First Amendment doesn’t allow that."

While Volokh doesn't think the Montana defamation law is unconstitutional per se, its prohibition on injurious statements about groups, classes, or associations must be "limited to relatively small groups, such as...four officers of a corporation, or twenty-five employees in a particular job category," he writes.

But the Montana prosecutor disagrees; statements that injure the reputation of Jews as a class (or presumably Muslims, blacks, gays, men, police officers, law professors, Republicans, or any other such group as a class), the prosecutor reasons, are also covered by the statute.

If I lived in Montana as I typed something like "police officers are bullies," "librarians have six toes apiece," or "Montana government officials hate free speech," I could apparently be charged with criminal defamation. That's terrifying. And certainly unconstitutional?

Volokh points out that the Supreme Court did hold, in 1952, that "group libel" is constitutionally unprotected; yet since then, the Court and legal scholars have routinely rejected this opinion. Prevailing case law now holds that disrespectful, hateful, or "reputation-injuring" opinions—such as Lenio's assertion that Jews "hate free speech"—cannot be punished as defamation, which is reserved for false factual assertions. What's more, even false factual assertions cannot be considered defamatory unless the speaker knows they are false. And even deliberate falsehoods about historical matters (like the Holocaust) or economic and social issues (including the alleged behavior or characteristics of a large racial, religious, political, etc. group) are constitutionally protected as well.

The most recent ruling in this regard was United States v. Alvarez (2012), where judges opined that "laws restricting false statements about philosophy, religion, history, the social sciences, the arts, and other matters of public concern" would "present a grave and unacceptable danger of suppressing truthful speech." This does not mean that "there is no such thing as truth or falsity in these areas or that the truth is always impossible to ascertain," they state, "but rather that it is perilous to permit the state to be the arbiter of truth."

* I previously stated that a district judge had rejected Lenio's motion to dismiss, which is incorrect. Lenio's lawyer has until June 10th to reply to the state's response, after which the court will rule.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Man arrested for criminal threats, hate speech at LA City Council meeting
Email
EMBED </>More Videos
<iframe width="476" height="267" src="http://abc7.com/video/embed/?pid=1345636" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A frequent and outspoken critic of Los Angeles City Hall was arrested on Wednesday after police said he made criminal threats and also used hate speech aimed at Los Angeles Council President Herb Wesson.
By Jory Rand and Darsha Philips
Wednesday, May 18, 2016
DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES (KABC) --
A frequent and outspoken critic of Los Angeles City Hall was arrested on Wednesday after police said he made criminal threats and also used hate speech aimed at Los Angeles Council President Herb Wesson.

Attorney Wayne Spindler was arrested after he allegedly filled out a comment card with a drawing of a man hanging from a tree and also referred to Wesson, an African American, by a racial slur.

Wesson is the first African American to hold the seat of council president.

"A cross that's burning, an individual in a KKK hood. He calls me the 'N' word and has a photo of me hanging from a tree," Wesson said at the meeting.

Spindler, who has been seen wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood with a swastika on it at a city council meeting and said he represents immigrants fighting deportation, claimed the images were not of Wesson.

"The cross burning is the city burning down from corruption, the hood is city hall coming after us for our money and the tree is me and everybody getting lynched as taxpayers," Spindler said.

When asked why the comment card had a racial slur on it, Spindler responded, "They don't listen to us. The only way they listen to us is if we're emphatic."

Local elected officials dealt with Spindler's antics for years, but Spindler has been protected under freedom of speech.

"This is the kind of verbiage we get on a routine basis as L.A. City Council and one of the characters finally put it in writing so now we have proof that this is the kind of abuse that residents, constituents, and council members and staff take on a regular basis," Los Angeles City Councilman Marqueece Harris-Dawson said.

Spindler said he is not racist and does not identify with the KKK.

"This guy [Wesson] is just using this as a ploy," Spindler said. "He wants to get me and other people out of city hall because we're making a difference."

Spindler was arrested at a council meeting in 2015, but charges were never brought in the case. Spindler said he was waiting to see if charges would be brought in this most recent case.

In regards to both cases, Spindler said he intends to sue the city.

Related Topics:
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:46 pm
@maxdancona,
https://whoobazoo.com/kevinjacksonradio/2016/12/07/arrested-hate-speech/
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:48 pm
@emmett grogan,
I take this particular post as parody. Tell me I'm not wrong..
emmett grogan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:48 pm
@maxdancona,
2 Secaucus men arrested for hate speech towards Muslim woman: police
Secaucus police car
Two Secaucus men were arrested last week after a Muslim woman told police the pair shouted derogatory statements towards her about her religion, police say. Erika Solorzano | The Jersey Journal (Erika Solorzano)
Print Email
Mak Ojutiku | The Jersey Journal
By Mak Ojutiku | The Jersey Journal
Email the author
on December 15, 2015 at 5:38 PM

SECAUCUS -- Two Secaucus men were arrested last week after a Muslim woman told police the pair shouted derogatory statements towards her about her religion, police say.

According to Secaucus Police Det. Sgt. Mike Torres, Carey J. Guillaume, 58, and Anthony A. Rosso, 64, were arrested on Dec. 10 on charges of bias intimidation and harassment, after police responded to a report of harassment on Front Street at 3:31 p.m.

Torres says the 24-year-old woman told police she was walking to a nearby laundromat while wearing a hijab, when the two men encountered her and began yelling.

The women told police that the men shouted "you're a Muslim" at her and also told her to "go back to your country" and "eat pork", according to Torres.

After the woman signed complaints against the two men, police say they found probable cause and arrested the two men.

Guillaume and Rosso were processed and served, and bail was set at $2500 with a 10% option. Both men posted bail and a court date is pending.
emmett grogan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:52 pm
@maxdancona,
What the freak is your problem. Go ahead prove me wrong. Google the headline and see what it brings up. I was using Alt-right sources just for you.

Read further down - Washington Post, TV news etc. You just hate being wrong but one might think you'd be used to it by now.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:52 pm
@ossobucotemp,
I think I upset you again, Osso, and that caused you to say something rash. You don't really agree with Emmett Grogan.

He actually believes that Benjamin Dover was jailed for hate crimes. And he actually believes that Holocaust Denial is not protected by the First Amendment.

Tell me, are you really in agreement with E. Grogan?

I think I offended you when I suggested that your bubble based on "set of ideas and values which you are in agreement with a group of people" is an "ideological bubble". I won't hold you to what you said while you were upset.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:53 pm
@ossobucotemp,
Its a right wing site crying about right wingers being arrested for hate speech.
ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:54 pm
@emmett grogan,
Makes me want to see Return of the Secaucus Seven again.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 03:55 pm
@emmett grogan,
emmett grogan wrote:

Its a right wing site crying about right wingers being arrested for hate speech.


So... you don't know who Benjamin "Ben" Dover is?

I am loving Emmett's amusing posts.

I still want to hear if Osso actually believes that hate speech isn't protected under the First Amendment, or if she only said that because I upset her.


 

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