"TO THOSE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING. A DIALOGUE WORTH READING

"TO THOSE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING. A DIALOGUE WORTH READING
Posted on Aug 18th, 2006 by jufa
From: bitoseeing Sent: 2/28/2006 10:59 AM
jufa

It wasn't until I clicked on the link to another philosophy forum included in your copy-and-paste response in the thread " The energy that is involved in the process of human thought is real there forever did I feel that I understood the 'flavor' of your metaphysical view, so I cut and paste portions of this alternate forum response here, in my Virgil/Beatrice post (wasn't sure where else it 'belonged'). What struck me after I read it is how big was the gap between what I believed you were saying and what you were 'really' saying, and perhaps, after this response, you may (or may not) discover the principle of vice versa applies vis a vis your interpretation of my metaphysical view: I have copied the post in its entirety for the sake of comprehension, but will only respond to those thoughts that I feel are most 'meaningful' to our particular 'thought dance.':
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jufa..."Sabine;
I, attempted to answer your question, last week, but for some unknown reason it did not go through, I will do so now. If you would, I would have you take note this post, as all my post deals not in humanistic explanations, they go beyond that, and thus, to received the true value of this, which values are for the purpose of growth beyond the words written here, you must free yourself from the box the universal human mind says is real, and which also say you cannot go beyond. But there is nothing in this universe greater than your will of being because your will is an emanation of the only will the universe is conceived in Consciousness.

It is often said whatsoever a man can imagine, can be accomplished.  Now all men imagine, which leads to dreams, which leads to hope, which is the crossroad of activity to fulfill the dreams, or inactivity which leads to failure and being unfulfilled. Most of man's life, irrespective of the activity, is a clear trail of shattered dreams, broken promises, incomplete endeavors, and aloneness and fears." [jufa]
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Bito...And here I was, throughout our entire dialogue, believing that it was this very imagination that you were 'selling' as the release from the box of duality! I agree that it is our imagination that causes our suffering, for when we cling to the images we produce, not only are we trapped in the very duality we are trying to escape (mind vs. body or God vs. Man, etc.), we are settling for a poor substitute for what is Real. Now, what you understand is
Real and what I understand is Real are not the same - I shall explain further as I go along.
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jufa "Men cannot seem to grasp their minds are finite, nor the truth that their minds does not have a permanent conscious memory of the infinity of their life, before birth, and after death. Neither do men realize their dreams and aspirations are levied on a scale of opposites which never finds grounds for balance. So all men live their lives from an imaginative disposition of conditions, which are based on the proposition of birth, living within the bounds of birth, and fading from the active life of physical living because of death. This is the reality men acknowledge, believe, and imagine their destinies are enveloped in, through, and all around.

The origin of man is Spirit, because Spirit is the underlining substance which the entire creation emanates from. Whatever man's human imagination presents, or have presented to man in thoughts, projected imagined visions, of fictitious interpretations of reality, never can man reveal the truth of his Being to his self. Any thought, any projected imagined vision, or fictitious interpretations of reality which the mind and imagination present to the man, are always conditional to matter, and matter, in and of itself, is not real."
[jufa]
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Bito...Yes, yes, yes! Being and thought can never co-inside, for all thought is dualistic, therefore, all thought is fictitious. I see all thought as projection, even that which we call spiritual.  Egoic projection is denser for it is entirely convinced it is a separate entity, whereas the thought projection from one who has transcended this separation-density (no matter how 'high' is this transcendence) is lighter, subtler, more ethereal, but is still a projection. In other words, as long as a separation between witness and that which is witnessed exists, there will be thought to sustain this separation (even if it is as subtle as that of light images only). And, according to my 'seeing', my 'understanding', this no-separation can only exist in its Purity, its Truth, its Absoluteness, when there is no thinking; no thinking, whatsoever.
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jufa..."All that men consider to be good and evil, positive and negative, or understand as cause and effect is based upon their conscious awareness of those conditions as they have been instilled in their minds. It is those instilled beliefs in conditions which keeps men from realizing they are Spirit Beings, or how to touch and become one with "Christ in them, their hope of glory." " [jufa]
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Bito...To realize one is a Spirit Being is also to realize that all is spirit, there is no separation, except via thought. And thought is unavoidable. But, once fully conscious of thought's role in our existence (projection from Purity) we are freed from attachment to the roller-coaster that is its dualistic-calling card.
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jufa..."Everything men do is done under the enclosed umbrella of their visions, feelings, and because they believe they cannot touch the invisibility of themselves, they become judgmental to conditions of degrees perpetuated by their universal human minds which has enslaved them to materialism. This enslavement is the cause of man's belief that the perfection of God has changed from the complete, whole, perfect, and pure form of Spirit, to that of a structure of finite matter. In this structured belief, men believe they become independent from the governing Principle of the "law of the Spirit of life," to their own dominating ego's of self-righteous pride." [jufa]
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Bito...Agreement.
Where we differ, perhaps, is in what this touching is. For me, touching the invisibility of myself is touching pure feeling. or, pure feeling touching. There are no thoughts, no forms, no images, no awareness of other, in this touching. And, to define this pure feeling is not possible.
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jufa..."These are the selfish dominating ego's which hide behind prideful selfishness, and present to other men a unit of collective concern called organization. These organizations are presented for display in the forms of family units, churches, businesses, and government; not to mention educational institutions. The reality of these organized units alienate the collective unity of the whole, because they break down the inter-dependency of the whole, to become the selfish individualized unit of self survivors. [jufa]
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Bito...Agreed, but I do not see the disappearance of such organizations for thousands of years, if ever. For now, however long this now shall be, perhaps (and I so say perhaps, because I do not and cannot know), they serve the purpose as being a transition
between duality (sense of separation) and Being (all sense of separation dissolved).
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jufa..."These selfish individualized units of self survivors come to believe their minds are a creative power, and their flesh an instrument of importance; neither are such. However, because it has been instilled in their minds "whatever the mind can imagine can be accomplish," they step off into their own imaginative devises, which their thoughts produce, of false fictitious forms of illusion which appear to be solid matter." [jufa]
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Bito...Again, the immensity of my misunderstanding of your spiritual position is made clear by this paragraph, for the very thing you are renouncing as being real and true is the very thing I believed you believed was real and true! With regards to imagination and the power of belief in its reality: from my personal experience I see and understand that one must exercise this powerful illusory belief in all its intensity, in all its illusory pain, before this belief is shattered, destroyed or dissolved. It will not happen because someone tells us to stop imagining. For when you understand purity to be 'pure feeling in light', as I do, you also come to understand that it is through feeling that we experience what is real and what
is not real. In humanistic terms, it is the heart that knows what is real and true, not the
mind.
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jufa..."With this said, the problem we encounter, and seek resolution of can never be solved by the universal human mind; the collective engagement of the thoughts of that mind, nor individualized thinking, because it is the mind which forms the problems, and it is the mind used in attempting to solve those problems. What you have is mind forming of itself, that which it is attempting to dissolve; mind battling mind." [jufa]
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Bito...From my understanding, truer words were never spoken. To apply duality in our desire to be released from duality is, well, insane!
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jufa..."But a mind imbued with truth sees the true forms of Spirit life. Forms which are different from the forms our human imaginations project. Transcending forms, as the form Jesus took on the Mount of transfiguration. Transcending forms not subject to the laws of nature; man's laws, nor the laws of birth and death. Forms which cannot be held in a tomb; they rise. Forms which are absorbed in nothing but light; light exploding into life; life exploding into life. Forms which can "behold the glory of God." "[jufa]
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Bito...I cannot comprehend this Spiritual Vision in experience, for to me, all forms are projections of the 'Fire in Light'. All forms are dualistic in nature, for how can one be a Form without witnessing the Form, and once one witnesses the Form, one steps into subject (witness) and object (that which is being witnessed) - duality! I assume you do not see these Forms as projections, but rather, as the Structure of Life Itself? To me, this is the Mystery that shall never be revealed. Again, when I step into the
invisiblity of myself, there are no images, no forms, except those that are presented to me though/to my physical eyes. They are spiritual, as in not separate from Spirit, but they are differentiated spirit.
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jufa..."When a mind is based in concept of imagining how creation came into being, that mind is in condition form, and the possessor of such a mind believes God is not the only power. This is the human mind. It is ignorant to truth. This mind lets its imagination
enslave it to illusions, and dictates those illusions to be acknowledge as real." [jufa]
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Bito...Yes, God is the only power, by whatever name one gives to God.
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jufa..."We can be delivered from this enslavement, but only by truly feeling for God. Should we truly reach out, or that should be within, to touch God, we will touch the Christ who is the inner door which, once stepped though, will lead us into the presence of Spirit consciousness. That Consciousness commanded to shine out of darkness. That Consciousness which is the light, and life flow of all existence. Should we step into this light, it will consume every portion of the flesh mentality which has enslaved us, and free us from the illusion of our slave-master's grip." [jufa]
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Bito...In essence, this truth resonates, but again, my touch of God contains no forms apart from those which are revealed to my physical eyes. The Wholeness of Structure remains a Mystery to me, and no 'where' within my intuition can I see/hear this Mystery's Absolute revelation, either by sight or sound. This is the source of my inner peace, my inner satisfaction, this mysterious non-dual awareness
that is love and wisdom both (to me).

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa