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Matthew VS Luke

 
 
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 06:15 pm
Matthew vs. Luke
Whoever wins, coherence loses
Tom Flynn

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The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 25, Number 1.
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Most Americans naively assume that Christmas has to do with the birth of a child in a manger in Bethlehem in or around the year 0?-or was it the year 1? Of course, it was neither. Most Christians now believe the Nativity occurred a few years earlier: in 4 b.c.e. or perhaps 7 b.c.e. But was there a Nativity at all? Indeed, need we assume that anything the Gospels say about Jesus is historical?

One reason for skepticism is that in so many aspects?-not just those revolving around that manger in Bethlehem?-the story of Jesus as told (with sundry contradictions) in the four canonical Christian Gospels is so thumpingly familiar?-familiar, that is, in the sense that it echoes so many earlier myths and creeds.1

In his "Shedding Light on the Light of the World" in this section, Robert J. Gillooly explores this theme in detail. As he noted, most savior man-gods were claimed by their followers to have been born of a virgin, venerated by kings in the crib, murdered, and resurrected. Zealous chroniclers claimed virgin births and often resurrections for historical figures as well, including most of the Caesars, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and even the mathematician Pythagoras. If Jesus was the Son of God, then we might expect his résumé to make unique claims not anticipated by hack biographers of the rich and famous. If, on the other hand, Jesus was a man just remarkable enough to trigger the myth-making machinery of his time?-or if, as I suspect, he was wholly legendary?-then such formulaic and derivative claims are just what we should expect.

Now, let's turn to the Christian record. What do the Gospel writers say about Jesus? When it comes to his birth, as a group, they say nothing. The Gospels of Mark and John never mention the Nativity. Only Matthew and Luke describe it.

But it's misleading to say "Matthew and Luke." One might better say "Matthew vs. Luke," for the Gospels bearing their names contradict each other on almost every detail. The popular image of shepherds and wise men side by side before the cradle? Matthew says wise men. Luke says shepherds. Neither says both.

The star in the East? Only in Matthew.

"Hark, the herald angels sing" . . . but only in Luke. Matthew never heard of them.

But then, only Matthew heard of Herod's slaughter of the innocents (treated at greater length in Bruce Martin Wildish's "The Great Messiah Blunder" in this section). That's right, the indiscriminate killing of every male baby in Judea?-with one significant exception?-did not merit Luke's attention. On the other hand, no Roman historian chronicles this atrocity either, not even Flavius Josephus. Josephus reviled Herod and took care to lay at his feet every crime for which even a shred of evidence existed. Had Herod really slaughtered those innocents, it is almost unimaginable that Josephus would have failed to chronicle it.

Matthew says Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem, moving to Nazareth after their flight into Egypt (again, see Wildish). But Luke says Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth all along; Jesus was born in Bethlehem only because Joseph and Mary had traveled there to enroll in the census (See Frank T. Miosi's "Those Hapless Apostles," in this section.) Roman records mention no such census; in fact, Roman history records no census ever in which each man was required to return to the city where his ancestral line originated. That's not how the Romans did things.

Our litany of errors continues. Matthew and Luke both claim to catalogue the male ancestors of Jesus?-through Joseph?-back to King David. Matthew lists twenty-eight generations between David and Jesus. Luke lists forty-one. Matthew and Luke propose different names for Joseph's father and grandfather. They propose different names for each ancestor separating Joseph from Zerub'babel, a late Old Testament figure. Incredibly, over the five-hundred-year span preceding the birth of Jesus, Matthew and Luke, whom many Christians consider divinely inspired, cannot agree on the name of a single one of Joseph's ancestors!2

This disparity is less troublesome if one views Christianity in historical rather than metaphysical terms. Scholars tell us the Gospels of Matthew and Luke developed independently in discrete Christian communities. Neither evangelist could know that the other had guessed differently about story details or had made different choices about which pagan traditions to borrow. But why should either evangelist include a genealogy through Joseph if Jesus were born of a virgin?-in which case Joseph would not be his father? Conversely, why should either evangelist borrow various stories (if not the same stories) about the virgin birth, veneration by kings, miracles at age twelve, and the like from sundry Hellenistic mystery cults if the idea was to show Jesus as the Jewish Messiah?

The Gospels of Matthew and Luke preserve, as if in amber, contradictions that embroiled the early Church. The earliest Christians aimed to convert Jews alone; only after the world embarrassingly failed to end as prophesied were Gentiles also targeted for conversion. Hellenistic Gentiles cared nothing whether Jesus was the Hebrew Messiah. If this new religion were to appeal to them, Christianity would need to display some of the elements familiar to them from Hellenistic mystery religions: a hero demigod, born of a virgin, worshiped in the crib, quick to work miracles, fated to die and rise again.3

The logics of Davidic descent and virgin birth are mutually exclusive. Forced into the same narrative, they collide like a southbound freight train and an eastbound propane truck. Yet each had its zealous proponents. Unable to jettison either the Jewish Messiah tradition or the Hellenistic virgin-birth tradition, Christianity just held its breath and plunged forward carrying them both. Amazingly, the new religion got away with it.

Next question: When was Jesus born? No one knows. Estimates that the Nativity occurred a few years b.c.e. arose from scholarly efforts to reconcile Luke's census and Matthew's slaughter of the innocents with known history. Modern scholarship tells us that neither event occurred, leaving us without evidence for the year of Jesus' birth.

Can we do better regarding the birth date? It's almost certainly not December 25, long venerated in pagan tradition in connection with the winter solstice. Anyway, remember those shepherds with their flocks by night? Judea isn't that warm in December, nor was it two thousand years ago. Historians tell us the flocks were probably supervised by night only in spring, when the ewes bore their young. Early Christian communities celebrated Christmas on a cornucopia of dates: January 6, February 2, March 24, April 19, May 20, and November 17, among others. But by the fourth century c.e., December 25 had won acceptance across the West as the official birthday of Jesus (though Eastern Christians still observe it on January 6).

Did Jesus exist? Possibly not?-and if he did, surely he bore scant resemblance to the legendary figure of the Christian Gospels. Regarding his birth, we can be less equivocal. So steeped in pagan lore are the dueling accounts of Matthew and Luke, so reflective of the politics of the early Church rather than of any possible history, and so wholly contradictory in their details, that when it comes to the Nativity, Christianity's foremost sources tell us quite literally nothing at all.


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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 07:03 pm
His paper is ridiculous, and even poorly written compared to papers I've seen written to the contrary.

If anyone is really interested, James E. Talmage has several books and articles which clear up every single contradiction I've ever heard.
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binnyboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 01:39 am
I don't suppose you'd be so kind as to plagiarize a few of them? I don't speak for everybody, but I'd read it if it was here, but I'm not gonna go on a wild goose chase for it!
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 08:02 am
Ok, the major part of the article seems to be claiming that because the two accounts are not identical in all particulars means that the nativity was made up. So, if in reading a biography of Lincoln, if something does not get recorded in precise detail from another biography, I can thus assume Lincoln never really existed. Or Julius Caeser? Or whoever?

One writer says shephards, one says wise men. This means there could not have been both? Why?
The article's logical flaws are not even worth arguing about. Think what you may about the historical reliability of the birth of Christ, but this article is a poor excuse for arguing against it.
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lab rat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:36 pm
I started to compose a reply here, but the topic post is so full of nonsense I couldn't hope to address everything.
E.g.:
Because only one of four Gospel authors notes something, that means it can't be historically accurate?
Because two different people record different observations, they must be making it up?

I'd suggest spending some time with a Bible commentary; if you study the backgrounds, intended audiences, purposes, etc. of the four Gospel authors you may gain some insight as to why only two of the authors chose to include Jesus' birth; why Luke dates things by the Roman emperor; how Luke's sources and Matthew's sources for the Christmas story differ (neither was a direct eyewitness, of course); etc.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:50 pm
Yes, it was like he just assumed himself to be an authority on the matter. He didn't even do any real research.

The shepherds came to the manger, but the wise men didn't arrive until a few years later. They would not have actually been at the manger. They had to travel quite some distance, and even came to the king first to inquire where they might find the boy. He just ignores the parts of the bible that don't support his claims.

Along the lines of what coastalrat said, it would be really weird if the four accounts in the bible were all exactly the same, seeing as they were written by different authors at different times. If they were perfectly harmonious that would be a sure sign of fraud.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 03:58 pm
Binnyboy, if you're really interested in doing some reading, try "Jesus the Christ" by the above mentioned author.

Like the others here I I don't find the article in the least bit credible, so I see no reason to go to extensive effort to disprove it.
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Thalion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 06:04 pm
As a very quick comparison, Matthew was written to a Jewish audience while Luke was written to the gentiles. Luke portrays Jesus as a "universal savior". In Luke, lowly shepherds are present at Jesus's birth; the role of Mary is greater than in other gospels. Matthew: Jesus is greeted by Kings from the East. Matthew: the Sermon on the Mount - similar to Moses' reception of the commandments. Luke: Jesus forgives two criminals on the Cross. Matthew: Jesus prays a Jewish psalm on the cross, "My God, my God, why did you abandon me?" (I don't remember which psalm this is.) Matthew is divided into Five sections, like the Pentateuch. The examples are endless. This should make the effect of the author's AUDIENCE on the content of the gospels apparent for those that have not taken this into account.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 06:47 pm
And as to why there were many tales similar to that of Jesus, that's because there had been many prophesies OF Jesus. It's essentially the same principle as so many people claiming that they are Jesus returned for the second coming. Why do so many people claim this? because it has been prophesied, and they are basically crazy. Before Christ came there were many prophesies of a messiah who would perform miracles, save his people, be murdered and resurrected.
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lab rat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 07:42 am
Incidentally, when it comes to evaluating historical accuracy of an event, one method of confirming the event is to see if it's also reported in a hostile reference--e.g. a Roman text vs a Jewish text, etc. Along this line, the claimed virgin birth of Jesus is affirmed in the Koran, of all places.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 07:49 am
Good one, Edgar! Look how they're sputtering.

<I know other people who celebrate Christmas like this, too. Wink>
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 10:09 am
I don't see anyone "sputtering" Piff. Just reasoned arguments disputing the validity or conclusions arrived at in the article Edgar posted.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 12:29 pm
I have seen well-written articles against Jesus, which I still disagree with.

But the fact is, this is not well-written, not well-researched, and I disagree with it.

When someone comes on this site and posts a very poorly researched document "proving" that evolution never occured, usually no one who disagrees takes the time to offer a well-thought-out rebuttle. It just isn't necessary.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 01:05 pm
Really? I see a lot of sputtering and not a lot of reasoned argument. I don't see any surprises about Jesus being mentioned in the Koran... it is a book that "came after," you know, and the Muslims do like to think of themselves as "of the Book." Most any student of religion will tell you that. As for other "hostile sources" -- you're right. I think it is fairly interesting that none of the Roman records show anything about the events -- a census, great wise men visiting, even the crucifixion. Care to comment?

However, I'm not telling you to believe anything different from whatever you want. Just remember that your Biblical N.T. came from the Catholics and try to be nice to them. I do believe that for the Christians to begin living their lives using the Christian message would be a good thing. Too bad there is a huge tendency to do the opposite. Let's see, when's the last time you've seen a non-Catholic Christian turn the other cheek... or refrain from judging.... or visit and be sympathetic with someone in prison without demanding they believe? When is that last time that a good Christian gave away all his/her belongings and recognized that money was the root of all evil? Even, when is the last time that you've seen a Christian willing to love everyone, not just a chosen few and only those who believe?

It is good for SCoates to come on this SITE and tell us how something is poorly-written and ill-informed and... not well-researched, but we do expect a modicum of a case to go along with it. Personal opinion -- we've all got one.

Talmage, for whomever was asking, was an elder in the Mormon church.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/w/o/wol3/talmaje1.htm
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 01:35 pm
Piffka, I would like to hear you give a few reasons why "roman records," as vague as that source is, would care to take note of three jewish prophets who noticed a star in the sky, and came to see the jewish savior; or why they would need to take note of one crucifixion of a man that many jews claimed to be a prophet, when so many men were crucified throughout their history. Why would the romans care?

Or perhaps you could show us this comprehensive roman history which leaves out the taxation? Since "roman records" are so easy to access, perhaps you could give us a link. Wouldn't that be a nice place to start, instead of attacking Christians in general, and ignoring argument any of us has mentioned so far?

Of course, if you feel any of that would be too difficult to prove, then you really have no case so far. You are correct that many Christians behave in very unchristian ways, but that has nothing to do with this article or its validity.

Also, if you feel any of that would be too difficult to prove and are for some reason angry that we do not simply trust the initial document, you're welcome to play the "burden of proof" card, which has become sort of a "get out of jail free" card on this site for anyone who can't put an argument together.

As far as I'm concerned right now nothing has been brought forth to legitimately challenge Christianity, and therefor I see nothing wrong in the passive stand I've taken so far.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 02:19 pm
Ahhh, I don't need to make a case, that would be your job. I am totally happy in what I believe, thank you very much, and it does not rely on the veracity of the book you claim as your own. A book that I happen to know pretty well. Yet, the beauty of having a belief is nothing I can say will change the mind of someone who hasn't already challenged themselves.

As for it being difficult to prove that the Bible is full of confusion and fallacies? Hmmm, you're unwilling to accept that none of the Gospels are confusing... so where to start. How about Genesis?

World created in a single day? Woman created from man's rib? Flood covering the entire world? You'll note that there is nothing noted anywhere in the Bible about the history of the world like the age of the universe, the age of the moon, the age of the earth... dinosaurs, Neanderthals. You'd think that the Bible might, at least, mention the periods of glaciation we've had... some as late as in the last 20,000 years, not including the mini-ice-age we had around 1200 CE.

Where is this, for example:

Quote:
"The big question has always been how quickly, and in what number, did people return once the glaciers had retreated," said research team leader Nick Barton, from the anthropology department of Oxford Brookes University, Oxford, England. "Now with the benefit of larger numbers of radiocarbon dates corrected against a highly accurate record of global climatic change from the Greenland ice record, it seems reoccupation was an almost instantaneous event across northern and central Europe."

Early modern humans reached Britain by around 30,000 years ago, but within 3,000 years they were driven out by the advance of the last ice age.

The archaeologists looked for evidence of their return in ancient caves in western and northern England. The team radiocarbon dated bits of butchered bone from animals the settlers hunted such as red deer, and wild horse and cattle. The data reveal repopulation began as far back as 16,000 years ago.



And it was, btw, the CENSUS that was mentioned in the article Edgar Blythe posted, not taxation.
0 Replies
 
SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 02:46 pm
I haven't claimed any responsibility for Genisis, nor has it's validity yet been mentioned on this thread, nor have you established how its validity is relevant to Christianity, but nice try on weaseling out.

The fact is you do need to make a case. I don't think anyone here will accept your decision to push any responsibility for validation away from yourself. Until you came here we merely stated the truth as we saw it, there was no need to be very professional since we basically all agreed. Then you came in immediately throwing insults and expect us to explain your ignorance to you.

You have a poor eye for recognizing drivel, and you expect us to account for it, saying that we've made no case, when really none was made against us, so we have nothing to defend.

If you aren't willing to explain your opinions, rather than just insulting us, or highlighting my typos, then what do you hope to accomplish?

This isn't a high school debate, you're not scoring points with the judges.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 04:04 pm
My ignorance? You are treading on soft ground and I am far out of high school. Quit tossing around the insults or you will be reported.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 04:12 pm
And you haven't insulted anyone?
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 04:13 pm
[edited for immaturity]
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