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Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?

 
 
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2004 01:06 pm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,757 • Replies: 23
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2004 01:20 pm
personally, I think they add no merit to legal process and should be disallowed.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2004 03:24 pm
I could quibble with the writers leap of logic in determining the "real reason" for capital punsihment but it really doesn't matter.

The impacts to the family of a lost loved one are facts and that is what the jury is supposed to be measuring. Yes, the testimony is usually emotional but it isn't the emotion the jury is supposed to be weighing. The testimony is supposed to be to inform the jury of the impact of the loss on those left behind.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2004 04:16 pm
The article seems to imply there is something wrong with vengeance.
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lab rat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 08:23 am
Quote:
This shift makes perfect sense if you accept that the only real justification for capital punishment is vengeance.


I think the above sentence reflects a bit of the author's bias--the claim that vengeance is the "only real justification" isn't particularly well supported. Although I personally have a problem with the death penalty, there is another justification for capital punishment, and that is justice. Vengeance arises from a sense of justice but often goes further, hence the negative "spin". Justice in itself, however, is a worthy goal. In some people's eyes, life in prison isn't all that severe of a punishment; forgetting vengeance, victim impact/emotions, etc.--when someone robs another of life, is it just to simply confine them in a cell where their room, board, and healthcare are paid by taxpayers? Is loss of freedom a just exchange for loss of life?
I believe that victim impact statements are perhaps neither good nor bad for the jury/justice system, assuming the jury is capable of distinguishing fact from emotion. However, the statements ARE needed for the victim/survivors. Regardless of which way the jury decides, an impact statement allows the victim to confront the perpetrator and publicly announce the severity of the crime. Since the rest of the court case is governed by what the judge allows, with particular attention to the rights of the accused, allowing the victims to have their say in court seems just to me.
(But, I'm a socially-inept scientist, not a lawyer Confused )

(The last paragraph quoted by Joe summarizes my reason for opposing the death penalty--the reason is not based on justice, but mercy. As stated, capital punishment often assumes that the criminal will never change or repent of his/her ways. Given a choice, I would forbid capital punishment in order to allow the criminals this opportunity, however unlikely they are to change. But this is mercy, not justice.)
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 09:40 am
roger wrote:
The article seems to imply there is something wrong with vengeance.

Are you suggesting that vengeance should be the basis for capital punishment?
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 09:48 am
lab rat wrote:
I think the above sentence reflects a bit of the author's bias--the claim that vengeance is the "only real justification" isn't particularly well supported. Although I personally have a problem with the death penalty, there is another justification for capital punishment, and that is justice. Vengeance arises from a sense of justice but often goes further, hence the negative "spin". Justice in itself, however, is a worthy goal. In some people's eyes, life in prison isn't all that severe of a punishment; forgetting vengeance, victim impact/emotions, etc.--when someone robs another of life, is it just to simply confine them in a cell where their room, board, and healthcare are paid by taxpayers? Is loss of freedom a just exchange for loss of life?

This distinction between "justice" and "vengeance" makes no sense. "Justice" is the goal, not the means to arrive at that goal or the justification for having that goal. If "vengeance" is not "just" in itself, then it has no place in the justice system.

lab rat wrote:
I believe that victim impact statements are perhaps neither good nor bad for the jury/justice system, assuming the jury is capable of distinguishing fact from emotion. However, the statements ARE needed for the victim/survivors. Regardless of which way the jury decides, an impact statement allows the victim to confront the perpetrator and publicly announce the severity of the crime. Since the rest of the court case is governed by what the judge allows, with particular attention to the rights of the accused, allowing the victims to have their say in court seems just to me.

If victim impact statements are needed solely by the victims/survivors, then we should perhaps find a non-judicial forum in which they can deliver those statements. At the point where those statements are delivered in court during the sentencing phase of a capital trial, however, it seems clear that those statements are designed for only one thing: to convince the jury to order the execution of the convicted defendant.

lab rat wrote:
(But, I'm a socially-inept scientist, not a lawyer Confused )

That's to your credit.

lab rat wrote:
(The last paragraph quoted by Joe summarizes my reason for opposing the death penalty--the reason is not based on justice, but mercy. As stated, capital punishment often assumes that the criminal will never change or repent of his/her ways. Given a choice, I would forbid capital punishment in order to allow the criminals this opportunity, however unlikely they are to change. But this is mercy, not justice.)

Can't it be both?
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Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 08:34 pm
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
joefromchicago wrote:
If the rationale for capital punishment is vengeance, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that appeals to emotion are appropriate during the sentencing phase of a capital murder trial. But should vengeance be the rationale for capital punishment? And if not, is it nevertheless appropriate to allow victim impact statements (or comparable exculpatory statements offered on behalf of the defendant) at all?
gratuitous "drama" that can be associated with statements from both crown and defence witnesses, but I'm not sure if that's always possible if impact statements and offender's histories are to be admitted, as they rightly should be, IMO.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 09:06 pm
My dealings have been more with victims of crimes than with criminals.

Victims are generally confounded that the trial of the individual who is presumed to have caused them pain is a matter between that individual and the state.

I can see both mercy and justice being served by a objective trial and if the verdict is "guilty" a sentencing preceded by all the righteous hurt and indignation that the family of the victim can muster.

Let the bereaved have their day in court--even if the sentencing is done by a judge according to the letter of the law.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 10:26 am
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
Joeblow wrote:
I thought the primary rationale for any sanction, death penalty included, was punishment.

Capital punishment is punishment, so punishment cannot be the rationale for punishment. As I have mentioned elsewhere, it is generally recognized that there are five justifiable goals of punishment: (1) incarceration/incapacitation; (2) rehabilitation; (3) deterrence; (4) retribution; and (5) restitution.

Joeblow wrote:
gratuitous "drama" that can be associated with statements from both crown and defence witnesses, but I'm not sure if that's always possible if impact statements and offender's histories are to be admitted, as they rightly should be, IMO.

Why should it matter to a defendant's sentencing that the victim of the crime was a good person? Is a murder any less objectionable because the victim was a jerk?
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 10:28 am
Noddy24 wrote:
Let the bereaved have their day in court--even if the sentencing is done by a judge according to the letter of the law.

Would you be satisfied with a system where the victim impact statements are delivered after the verdict is rendered?
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 10:57 am
JoefromChicago asked:

Quote:

Would you be satisfied with a system where the victim impact statements are delivered after the verdict is rendered?


Personally, I would be satisfied. I accept all implications of "equal under the law".

I do not think your average Victim on the Street would be happy to abandon even an illusion of having their sorrow influence the sentence.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 12:38 pm
Noddy24 wrote:
I do not think your average Victim on the Street would be happy to abandon even an illusion of having their sorrow influence the sentence.

I think you are absolutely correct.
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Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 07:16 pm
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
joefromchicago wrote:
Capital punishment is punishment, so punishment cannot be the rationale for punishment. As I have mentioned elsewhere, it is generally recognized that there are five justifiable goals of punishment: (1) incarceration/incapacitation; (2) rehabilitation; (3) deterrence; (4) retribution; and (5) restitution.


Right. The death penalty is punishment, as is any other sanction, for example (from your list) incarceration. I haven't said that it is justifiable, simply that the rationale for imposing it, is to punish the offender. Capital punishment.

joefromchicago wrote:
Why should it matter to a defendant's sentencing that the victim of the crime was a good person? Is a murder any less objectionable because the victim was a jerk?


It only matters if you want the justice system to weigh mitigating factors when imposing sanctions. It might not make a difference to sentencing if the victim were truly good, or vile, or if the offender had relevant antecedents, but it could. Why else have different sentencing options?
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 09:37 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
roger wrote:
The article seems to imply there is something wrong with vengeance.

Are you suggesting that vengeance should be the basis for capital punishment?


Should? Well, it is, whether it should be or not, and I won't try to impress anyone with how civilized I've become.

joefromchicago wrote:
Joeblow wrote:
I thought the primary rationale for any sanction, death penalty included, was punishment.

Capital punishment is punishment, so punishment cannot be the rationale for punishment. As I have mentioned elsewhere, it is generally recognized that there are five justifiable goals of punishment: (1) incarceration/incapacitation; (2) rehabilitation; (3) deterrence; (4) retribution; and (5) restitution.

Joeblow wrote:
gratuitous "drama" that can be associated with statements from both crown and defence witnesses, but I'm not sure if that's always possible if impact statements and offender's histories are to be admitted, as they rightly should be, IMO.

Why should it matter to a defendant's sentencing that the victim of the crime was a good person? Is a murder any less objectionable because the victim was a jerk?


"Retribution is acceptable, but vengence isn't." was what I had planned to say, but you sent me to the dictionary, and I see they are really not the same.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 10:49 am
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
Joeblow wrote:
Right. The death penalty is punishment, as is any other sanction, for example (from your list) incarceration. I haven't said that it is justifiable, simply that the rationale for imposing it, is to punish the offender. Capital punishment.

Punishment cannot be the rationale for punishment.

Joeblow wrote:
It only matters if you want the justice system to weigh mitigating factors when imposing sanctions. It might not make a difference to sentencing if the victim were truly good, or vile, or if the offender had relevant antecedents, but it could. Why else have different sentencing options?

Are you speaking about "mitigating factors" (i.e. those factors that are introduced to make the defendant's sentence less severe) or "aggravating factors" (i.e. those factors that are introduced to make the defendant's sentence more severe)?

I agree with the introduction of mitigating factors in sentencing, because that is consistent with at least one of the permissible goals of punishment: rehabilitation. And a court or jury should be permitted to consider certain aggravating factors for the same reason. For instance, if the defendant is a career recidivist, that is useful in determining both the possibilities of rehabilitation and the necessity of incarceration.

Victim impact statements, however, don't seem to serve any of the permissible goals of punishment, except perhaps retribution. It then becomes a question of how retributive we want our justice system to be.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 10:56 am
roger wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
roger wrote:
The article seems to imply there is something wrong with vengeance.

Are you suggesting that vengeance should be the basis for capital punishment?


Should? Well, it is, whether it should be or not, and I won't try to impress anyone with how civilized I've become.

Even if it is, should it be?

roger wrote:
"Retribution is acceptable, but vengence isn't." was what I had planned to say, but you sent me to the dictionary, and I see they are really not the same.

Well, they're very close. As I described it before, retribution is:
    A somewhat more vague concept than the preceding three, this deals with the state's right, on behalf of its citizens, to exact some form of vengeance on the criminal, either as a means of demonstrating the value placed upon the law or the state's desire, in some fashion, to reflect the wishes of the victim.
So retribution is a sort of formalized vengeance, undertaken by society in place of the private vengeance that would otherwise be exacted by the victim or the victim's family. It is the vengeance of the community on the offender.

But then the question remains: are victim impact statements the appropriate means by which to prompt the community's retribution?
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Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2004 01:29 pm
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
joefromchicago wrote:
Punishment cannot be the rationale for punishment.


I believe the underlying reason, the basis, for state sanctioned killing, is punishment. The rationale for punishment of any kind (I know you'd like me to pick from your goal list, but I'm not going to - off with my head), is, IMO, social control.

joefromchicago wrote:
Are you speaking about "mitigating factors" (i.e. those factors that are introduced to make the defendant's sentence less severe) or "aggravating factors" (i.e. those factors that are introduced to make the defendant's sentence more severe)?


I'm suggesting that if you allow one, you must allow the other.

joefromchicago wrote:
Victim impact statements, however, don't seem to serve any of the permissible goals of punishment, except perhaps retribution.


It could be that in some cases you are right. What if the victim impact statement lent support to the offender and strengthened a case for rehabilitation? I can envision such a scenario.

joefromchicago wrote:
It then becomes a question of how retributive we want our justice system to be.


The system is punitive. IMO we need all sources of information if we're to strive for tempered sanctions.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 09:45 am
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
Joeblow wrote:
I believe the underlying reason, the basis, for state sanctioned killing, is punishment. The rationale for punishment of any kind (I know you'd like me to pick from your goal list, but I'm not going to - off with my head), is, IMO, social control.

This is an interesting tangent, but a tangent nonetheless. I won't pursue it further.

Joeblow wrote:
I'm suggesting that if you allow one, you must allow the other.

I don't necessarily disagree, but that's no reason to allow everything in. If victim impact statements are unfairly prejudicial to the defendant, should they be allowed to influence the defendant's sentencing?

Joeblow wrote:
It could be that in some cases you are right. What if the victim impact statement lent support to the offender and strengthened a case for rehabilitation? I can envision such a scenario.

So can I.

Joeblow wrote:
The system is punitive. IMO we need all sources of information if we're to strive for tempered sanctions.

Even if the information is more inflammatory than explanatory?
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Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:50 pm
Re: Victim impact statements -- should they be allowed?
joefromchicago wrote:
This is an interesting tangent, but a tangent nonetheless. I won't pursue it further.


As you wish.

joefromchicago wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's no reason to allow everything in. If victim impact statements are unfairly prejudicial to the defendant, should they be allowed to influence the defendant's sentencing?


Could you provide me with an example of what "unfairly prejudicial" might mean in real terms, in relation to a victim impact statement?

joefromchicago wrote:
Even if the information is more inflammatory than explanatory?


Isn't it the job of the judge and/or jury to determine what weight, if any, should be given to these statements?
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