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Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…

 
 
bboyblu
 
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 01:07 pm
Are the people at the Fox News trying to limit freedom of speech?

Even though it sounds a bit ironic, Fox News attempted (unsuccessfully)
to sue Penguin Books to keep "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them"
off the shelves. The book reveals the wrongdoings of major news
organizations, including Fox News. Funny how Fox tries to portray
themselves as free speech advocates, isn't it?

Has anyone read Al Franken's book yet, or heard about this case? It
looks like Court TV is airing a documentary on it called "The First
Amendment Project" this coming Tuesday (12/7, my birthday!!!) at 10pm.
I'm not going to be home to watch but that's why they invented Tivo,
right?

Bob
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,298 • Replies: 14
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 02:28 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
bboyblu wrote:
Funny how Fox tries to portray themselves as free speech advocates, isn't it?


"Free speech" is an issue between an person or group and the government. It has zilch to do with any dispute between two individuals or groups. As such, there isn't much of a contradiction there.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 02:40 pm
This is day-before-yesterday's news. Franken won the case in court.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 02:54 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
I think that's what bboyblu already said, M. Andrew, when he said that Fox had been unsuccessful .

And fishin, I'm surprised at your response. Advocates of whatever are generally expected to actually practice what they preach. Fox's behaviour really can be seen to contradictory in this example.

Not that I think there is much even-handedness in media. But there is no more excuse for Fox - which says "we report. you decide" on its front page - than for any other source of information.
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Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 03:14 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
fishin' wrote:
bboyblu wrote:
Funny how Fox tries to portray themselves as free speech advocates, isn't it?


"Free speech" is an issue between an person or group and the government. It has zilch to do with any dispute between two individuals or groups. As such, there isn't much of a contradiction there.


Although the S. Ct. has sometimes taken a narrow (and rather incoherent) approach to state action, one might argue that a judicial injunction is government action. After all, the judiciary is part of the government. It is partially for that reason that courts are often unwilling to grant injunctions against speech. In other words, bboyblu's invocation of "free speech" is quite relevant. Fox was asking an organ of the government to silence a private party. Even if you don't agree with it, that is at least a valid argument.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 03:28 pm
I ain't gonna do anybody's homework for 'em, but the FOX litigation had precious little to do with anything related to The First Ammendment.

I'll submit as well lotsa folks who rant and rave most stridently about "Free Speech" simultaneously have a flawed perception of the concept and little to no knowledge of the actual juridical interpretation and to what and in what manner that interpretation is applicable..
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 05:07 pm
timberlandko wrote:
I ain't gonna do anybody's homework for 'em, but the FOX litigation had precious little to do with anything related to The First Ammendment.


I'm calling you out on this one, Timberlandko, principally because of your condescending comments. I have nothing against you personally, but I wonder if your First Amendment knowledge is as deep as you imply. This case most certainly includes First Amendment issues, and the Southern District of N.Y. agrees.

From the preliminary injunction hearing for Fox News Network v. Penguin Group, 03 Civ. 6162 (SDNY Aug. 22, 2003):

Quote:
Even assuming for the moment that it is a valid mark, however, and even assuming there is some danger of confusion, here the First Amendment trumps. The First Amendment requires us to weigh the public interest in free expression against the public interest in avoiding confusion. In particular, titles, titles of books, movies, etc., have great protection under the First Amendment, and the Second Circuit has held in the Rogers case and the Cliff Notes case that the Lanham Act cannot could be construed narrowly to intrude on First Amendment values in this context.

The expressive element of titles requires more protection than labeling, for example, for commercial products. Mr. O'Reilly himself used the trademark phrase, or a play on the trademarked phrase "the good, the bad and the ugly" in his book entitled, "The Good, the Bad and the Completely Ridiculous in American Life." As the Authors' Guild has pointed out in its very helpful amicus brief, there is a long list of similar such uses of trademarked phrases or names.

Parody is a form of artistic expression protected by the First Amendment. The keystone to parody is imitation. Here, whether you agree with him or not, whether you like what he says or not, in using the mark, Mr. Franken clearly is mocking Fox. In setting himself up in what is apparently a news room, he is mocking Fox and O'Reilly. Mr. O'Reilly is bringing to mind in fact the cover of one of Mr. O'Reilly's books. Even though this may result in tarnishment or dilution in the general sense, it is fair criticism.

Of course, it is ironic that a media company that should be seeking to protect the First Amendment is seeking to undermine it by claiming a monopoly on the phrase "fair and balanced." The motion for a preliminary injunction is denied. We are adjourned. I gather you will hear from Judge Carter with respect to a motion to dismiss or an answer or further proceedings in the case.


source

As the court concludes, the First Amendment provides protection for parodies in private trademark suits. It had everything to do with their refusal to issue a preliminary injunction (the court also noted that the trademark was weak). The preliminary injunction was the primary remedy sought by Fox, and they dropped the suit after they lost this motion (a later, permanent injunction would have been silly after the book was already published) As I argued above, the presumption of no state action is also not clear when courts issue preliminary injunctions enjoining speech. See e.g. Willing v. Mazzacone, 393 A.2d 1155 (Pa. 1978) (refusing to enjoin even libelous speech on grounds that a court injunction implicates First Amendment free speech).

I hesitate to further litter this thread with cute quips, But you are certainly correct that:

Quote:
lotsa folks who rant and rave most stridently about "Free Speech" simultaneously have a flawed perception of the concept and little to no knowledge of the actual juridical interpretation and to what and in what manner that interpretation is applicable..
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Dec, 2004 09:37 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
ehBeth wrote:
I think that's what bboyblu already said, M. Andrew, when he said that Fox had been unsuccessful .

And fishin, I'm surprised at your response. Advocates of whatever are generally expected to actually practice what they preach. Fox's behaviour really can be seen to contradictory in this example.

Not that I think there is much even-handedness in media. But there is no more excuse for Fox - which says "we report. you decide" on its front page - than for any other source of information.


If my post seemed flippant, I apologize. My whole position is that anyone concerned about First Amendment rights, or any other Constitutional guarantees, shouldn't be watching a neocon abomination like Fox anyway. The Al Franken flap put Fox in its place, or as near to it as the courts can go in putting entities into their allocated places. Bill O'Reily's vitriol is about as 'fair and balanced' as a GOP press release. Reason I pointed out that this is old news is because the thread's headline -- Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech -- makes it sound as though this is a breaking story.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 12:35 am
I acknowledge the Fox/Penguin matter failed to gain FOX an injunction based on the plaintiff's claim of Copyright/Intellectual Property issues ... a claim flawed in a number of areas. That the Court predicated its decision to not grant relief on the 1st Ammendment is irrelevant to the point that FOX had no enforceable copyright or intellectual property claims to press, unlike Kimberly-Clark holds in "Kleenex" or General Motors holds in "Chevrolet".

Apart from that, the Lanham Act states specifically:
Quote:
(4) The following shall not be actionable under this section:

(A) Fair use of a famous mark by another person in comparative commercial advertising or promotion to identify the competing goods or services of the owner of the famous mark.

(B) Noncommercial use of a mark.

(C) All forms of news reporting and news commentary.


FOX had no case, 1st Ammendment or otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 09:42 am
Yes, Franken's book could probably fit into "news commentary," but that was one among several weaknesses in Fox's suit -- "free speech" was another. Moreover, the court did not, and could not, make a final decision on the merits of Fox's Trademark claims or any exceptions claimed by Franken in a ruling on a motion for a preliminary injunction. That "free speech" played a prominent part in the preliminary injunction balancing act more than justifies any commentary on that issue, even if the Trademark claims were also weak.

I think you have retreated, as you must, from claims about this suit having "precious little to do with anything related to free speech." "Free speech" is certainly an issue here, even if you believe that the Trademark claims were independently weak -- an argument I never disputed. Moreover, I would wager that the relevant exceptions in the Lanham Act itself were partly, if not wholly, motivated by Congress' concerns about First Amendment rights.

As I said, I have no ill feelings towards you. However, you spoke too quickly and rudely about the lack of First Amendment issues and your knowledge on those issues. With regards to prior restraints on "free speech" via preliminary injunctions, you should always see First Amendment issues. They live wherever state action lives, and court orders dance on the edge of "state action," even if meaning of that phrase is impenetrable.

Excluding the fact that this thread is incredibly late, I think that all the chatter about "free speech" has been completely redeemed.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 10:25 am
Well, Steppenwolf, you're certainly entitled to hold and espouse your opinion, and in relational manner thereto assess and comment upon dissenting opinions. So am I.

It is my opinion that irrespective of 1st Ammendment considerations, FOX, under applicable copyright and intellectual property laws, including but not limited to the Lanham Act, had no case. I don't see that in any way as retreating from my intial assertion, and I'm stickin' to that.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 01:26 pm
I agree. However, concluding that a case could or should have been decided entirely on grounds other than "free speech" is not to say that there were no "free speech" issues at all.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 01:27 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
ehBeth wrote:
And fishin, I'm surprised at your response. Advocates of whatever are generally expected to actually practice what they preach. Fox's behaviour really can be seen to contradictory in this example.


Why are you surprised? Do you honestly beleive that "Freedom of Speech" trumps libel and slander laws or allows for trademark infringement (which was the stated grounds the suit was brought on)?

Do people or groups have a right under the First Amendment to say anything they want without any possible repercussion?
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 01:54 pm
With regards to genuine parodies: Yes, the First Amendment trumps trademark infringement, even for valid trademarks (this one was obviously questionable).

Moreover, if you're looking for a preliminary injunction, as Fox was, the First Amendment often wins the day against claims for even libel and slander. A plaintiff can always receive damages after the fact, surely, but a preliminary injunction? Rarely.
0 Replies
 
Stop Forum Spam
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2004 07:29 pm
Re: Fox Channel Sues Comedian Over Freedom of Speech…
bboyblu wrote:
Are the people at the Fox News trying to limit freedom of speech?

Even though it sounds a bit ironic, Fox News attempted (unsuccessfully)
to sue Penguin Books to keep "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them"
off the shelves. The book reveals the wrongdoings of major news
organizations, including Fox News. Funny how Fox tries to portray
themselves as free speech advocates, isn't it?

Has anyone read Al Franken's book yet, or heard about this case? It
looks like Court TV is airing a documentary on it called "The First
Amendment Project" this coming Tuesday (12/7, my birthday!!!) at 10pm.
I'm not going to be home to watch but that's why they invented Tivo,
right?

Bob


This post is not from a real "user" -- it's forum spam on behalf of Court TV shows.

Court TV pays so-called "viral marketers" to register and post as "normal users" in order to advertise their upcoming shows in message forums. They have been doing this for some time now, and show no signs of stopping.

If you do a Google search of this spammer's user name "bboyblu", you'll see them registering and posting the same spam advertisment for Court TV in countless forums all within the past few days..

Admin: You would do well to ban this member and be aware of the constant spamming of message forums on behalf of companies like Court TV.
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