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"Getting groped is part of a normal night out."

 
 
Lash
 
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 07:59 am
Reading news items and came across this. The girls interviewed seemed to act like it's normal. If they don't complain, it IS the new normal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40633487/getting-groped-is-just-part-of-a-normal-night-out?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 08:05 am
@Lash,
Question: Is there a way to allow this type of free sexual expression for people who want it? If women want to go to a place where people grope each other... should they be allowed to have such a place? Sexual spontaneity is something that many humans enjoy. I think the rules of any environment need to be clear so that there are no misunderstandings.

But telling women that they are prohibited from going to a place that allows spontaneous sexuality isn't "freedom". It is sexual puritanism.

This seems like an example of some women telling other women how they should behave.


Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 08:15 am
@maxdancona,
I did think about women, like some in the article, who seem ok with it.

I had that in mind with the statement that if it's not reported, it becomes the new normal.

Guess that's where we're headed. A bit of a cultural shift.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 08:22 am
@Lash,
Not reported is one thing. But, what if it is something that is wanted?

If there is a group of people that want spontaneous sexuality (i.e. "groping" without asking first), then isn't the "new normal" a good thing?

People choose to participate in these cultural shifts.



Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 08:35 am
@maxdancona,
You seem to be attempting to set us up on opposing sides of this issue.

I've been to clubs where people are nude, and also clubs where people were having sex in plain view. Trust me, I am a proponent of the sex positive movement; however, someone is going to be physically injured if they grab one of my body parts without prior agreement.

So, if clubs want to be on record as a place where this happens--great!

If women like it, accept it, and don't report it--great!!

But, I think you can foresee what's going to happen. What can be really tittilating (hah, pun) for some women can be psychologically damaging for others.

An establishment can be sued.

Not sure if they'd be culpable. Not sure if a guy who sees this happen myriad times with no negative results, and so then tries it himself and gets dick-kicked and sued has any legal support. What do you think?
Sturgis
 
  4  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 09:17 am
@Lash,
...and so society as we once knew it crumbled.

If the groping is wanted, fine. Let people have their fun. The issue here though, seems to stem from women just not reporting the incidents. Incidents which many see as sexual assaults (as written under the photo in your linked article). I personally, am glad that there is now a campaign at a club in Bristol to remind women that it is their body and they have the right - and responsibility - to report any unwanted clawing.

If people wish to engage in these activities, let there be places for them which are established as locations where such physical interaction is allowed and not seen as wrong.


Through the years, unwanted sexual advances on women (and men and
transgendereds) has been allowed, in part due to a legal system which insists on making the victim out as the one at fault.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 09:31 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
If people wish to engage in these activities, let there be places for them which are established as locations where such physical interaction is allowed and not seen as wrong.


This is exactly what appears to have happened. The young women in the article don't see "such physical interaction" as wrong in these locations. There is a subculture here, where this behavior is expected... and outsiders are objecting.

The writer seems to be implying the young women, who choose to be in this subculture and see nothing wrong with it, are stupid.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 09:35 am
@Lash,
Lash:

Is it OK for a man to physically assault a woman if she grabs his butt when he doesn't want her to?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 09:45 am
@maxdancona,
My personal opinion is that anyone of any gender who, without warning or an understanding of permission, grabs the body of another person has initiated a physical interaction that may result in bodily harm to them.

I always get angry when a woman hits a man across the face and claims abuse when he responds in kind.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 09:52 am
Max, I think you might be reading from a particularly Max perspective. The article did say about 20 'attacks' per week--a lot-- have been reported, so I followed a linked article, and here's an excerpt:

More than 20 sex attacks are being reported every week in Britain's pubs, clubs, and bars, new data from police has revealed.

The statistics, released to BuzzFeed News under freedom of information (FOI) laws, show an average of 23 rapes or sexual assaults are reported each week at licensed premises across England and Wales.

However, the figures – which show there were 1,246 reported attacks in the year to 5 April 2017, across 26 police forces – are likely to be only the tip of the iceberg, as close to half of forces didn't provide data and the vast majority of sexual assaults are not reported to police, campaigners say.
----------------------------------

That's a lot, and rapes to boot. I now declare this a problem.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 02:28 pm
@Lash,
Several years ago, I was in the lunch room at my job washing a dish in the common sink. A female co-worker came up behind me, unexpectedly, and grabbed my butt. I think she thought she was being flirty, and that I would like it. I was not amused. I make it clear that I was not amused. She didn't do it again.

I didn't report this to the police. I certainly didn't kick or strike her. I didn't even report it to management. I simply made it clear that I didn't want too... she gave an awkward apology. And life went on. Obviously I could have reported this if I was upset enough. I could have even gone to the police. But I didn't. It was my decision that although it was unwanted and uncomfortable, it wasn't worth getting my co-worker in trouble.

Was I sexually assaulted? I my opinion the term "assault" is awfully strong for what happened. And I don't think it would be right for anyone to tell me I should be upset when I am not upset.

Why not let women decide for themselves?

We all agree that groping that is unwanted and upsetting should be taken seriously.

If a someone says the groping is either wanted or "no big deal", then why shouldn't we take her seriously?
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 05:04 pm
@maxdancona,
I didn't report my assault, but I was fucked up over it for a month--rather disabled by it for a couple of days. I didn't even tell my husband about it. Needless to say, depending on the severity of the incident, what feelings you're left with vary.

Not everyone reacts in expected -- even to them -- ways.

I guess after that experience, maybe I should staple a sign on my forehead:
Be very careful not to grab one of my body parts because I was assaulted many years ago, and I may kill you. Of course, it would be unintentional, but I'm carrying a bit of baggage re sexual assault.

Or, maybe people should just know they're taking a risk grabbing a handful of some people.

I think that's fair. Don't you?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 05:44 pm
@Lash,
I am sorry about what happened to you.

That doesn't change the problem with the narrative being set up by this article. Here we have women who don't consider themselves as being assaulted who are part of a subculture where this behavior is considered, by themselves, as normal.

The writer is making a judgement about these women. Of course, if these women were saying that they feel victimized, then we should take them seriously. That isn't what is happening here.

Lash
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 06:10 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm surprised I blabbed that. I don't think about it at all, and it didn't even come to my conscious thought until that exact exchange, but it was likely a subconscious element of my opinion. Appreciation to you for kind sentiment.

To me, there are at least two distinct viewpoints in the article. One: statistics of aggressive attacks that have been reported by victimized women and the statistical likelihood that the reported attacks are the tip of the iceberg because women don't want to report. I can vouch for that.

The other does cite an opinion, I think by a group that has taken on the issue. I think it is them you disagree with.

Very well.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Jul, 2017 07:42 pm
@Lash,
The issue of sexual assault has become tangled up with the issue of gender politics. Things get judged through a certain narrow lens that turns out to be unrealistic in many cases, and damaging in some.

Recently a writer shamed her own sons on the national stage as potential rapists... saying that they "weren't safe". Can you imagine doing this to your kids? There wasn't much outrage about this from the left, shaming your sons fits an ideological narrative. I was pretty offended.




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