Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 03:10 am
I suspect that most people on A2K won't give a crap, but North Korea murdered this young man for trying to take a poster as a souvenir. He was probably foolish to have gone there, but he was young, and foolishness shouldn't carry the death penalty. It's my understanding that their treatment of him wasn't so different from their treatment of their own people. I have read that they have these prison camps in which the prisoners are worked for long days but given almost no food and that prisoners die frequently. I even read the story of one prison camp escapee who was born in a camp and had little knowledge of the outside world when he escaped.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/06/19/Freed-North-Korea-detainee-Otto-Warmbier-dead-family-says/1441497905068/?utm_source=fp&utm_campaign=ls&utm_medium=1
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 09:14 pm
@Brandon9000,
The subject of politically related hateful rhetoric has been addressed in at least two other A2K threads but can there be more bilious and stomach turning comments than those those detailed in the following article?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448808/otto-warmbier-death-left-character-assassination?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=malkin&utm_content=otto-north-korea

Quote:
The Huffington Post published an acid rant by “Blogging While Black” writer La Sha titled “North Korea Proves Your White Male Privilege Is Not Universal.”

She rejoiced at Warmbier’s sentence because, she gloated, it taught him that “the shield his cis white male identity provides here in America is not teflon abroad.” Instead of faulting a repressive socialist regime, La Sha blamed Warmbier for “being socialized first as a white boy, and then as a white man in this country.”

“The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense.”


Imagine how twisted, and pathologically self-absorbed this "La Sha" creature must be to compare her circumstances of sitting comfortably in a residence somewhere in America and hammering out this poisonous screed, to those of Otto Lambier when he was likely lying broken, bloody and alone in a dank and filthy, rat infested Korean gulag? What kind of a bent mind believes that because Warmbier was a white, heterosexual American male his being brutally tortured by sadistic monsters was somehow justice deserved and delivered?

Whomever at HuffPost approved the publishing of this sickening emesis of hatred has absolutely no sense of decency and is as despicable as La Sha.

Quote:
Larry Wilmore plowed ahead with smug disregard to how Warmbier’s parents, family, and friends must have suffered as photos and videos of their son and loved one were plastered all over media. To canned laughter, Wilmore mocked Warmbier on his Comedy Central show with a graphic labeling him an “ASS,” which spelled out a fake frat name, “Alpha Sigma Sigma.” “It’s just tough for me to have much sympathy for this guy and his crocodile tears,” Wilmore snarked as he roasted the “Frat Boy.”


Wilmore is the same asshole who sanctimoniously attacked Milo Yiannopoulos on Bill Maher's show for his "hateful" claim that transgender people suffer from “a psychiatric disorder”

Quote:
Not to be outdone, Affinity Magazine (a “social justice” online magazine for teens) stomped on Warmbier’s grave after his death was announced: “Watch whiteness work,” the publication tweeted. “He wasn’t a ‘kid’ or ‘innocent’ you can’t go to another country and try to steal from them. Respect their laws.”


Respect their laws? As Malkin rightly points out, this is the same entity that elevated Michael Brown to martyr status and maintained he was the victim of a lawless police officer despite all of the evidence that showed Brown fought with the officer, tried to take his gun and later charged the officer despite being ordered to stop -- much of it gathered from the African-American citizens who lived in the same town as Brown. Oh, and all this was just a short while after he bullied and stole from an Asian shop owner down the street from the location of his demise. I guess that since Brown only ran afoul the laws of the oppressive white patriarchy there was no need for him to respect them, and indeed, violating them was an act of heroic resistance.

What is is so pitifully ironic is that each of these hateful hypocrites think that they are social paladins fighting for the rights of the oppressed and motivated by a true sense of love and compassion.

But of course those on the right say much worse things and far more often. Anyone who has the gall to say otherwise is deceitful or uneducated.

Now we can patiently wait for the usual suspects to come by and tell us that Michelle Malkin is worse than any of these malignant creeps.





wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
This is absolutely shocking and appalling. The North Korean regime has the worst human rights record in the world. The individuals cited in your post show an incredible lack of empathy combined with mindless self-centeredness. Words fail me. Thanks for calling our attention to this latest brand of barbarism.

P.S. I just read the linked article. Everyone, regardless of their political views, should read it.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:02 pm
Yes, it most definitely was murder.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 10:03 am
@wmwcjr,
And they weren't the only ones:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2017/06/20/flashback-when-liberal-sites-mocked-otto-warmbier-n2343496?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cr&utm_campaign=nrshare

Now, when this young man was first detained, I remember thinking

"Why would any American put themselves in so much peril by crossing the border into North Korea?"

I certainly didn't think anything like "Well Otto, you broke their law and now you're subject to their justice," because, for one, I don't give any credence to anything this monstrous regime states or claims. Keep in mind, this is the same regime that has sent operatives to Japan to kidnap Japanese citizens and bring them to North Korea. This is only one of their horrific crimes and the number of people murdered by the regime must now be in the millions, but it is a good example of just how rogue a rogue State can go, and if they can actively kidnap people in their own country, they are obviously not above detaining an American in theirs, based on an entirely fictitious "crime."

Secondly, the alleged crime was defacing and/or stealing a propaganda poster (of course that's not how the regime described the poster) and to the regime, this is not a minor crime. I would bet that people have been executed for this same "crime." Unless 15 years of hard labor is the minimum sentence for anything considered a "crime" in NK, that this is the sentence Warmbier received, suggests the regime didn't view his alleged act (whether actual or fabricated) the same as jaywalking. Right from the start, I feared Warmbier was going to be punished far more harshly that his "crime" warranted.

I also didn't chalk this up to simply a matter of foreign (in both senses of the term) justice applied to a foolish American "criminal" because not only did I know the regime has a history of detaining foreigners, with no justification, for political purposes, I knew that the treatment of Warmbier both before and after his "trial" was going to be extremely brutal. This wasn't just the case of an American receiving a much harsher sentence than he or she might have expected for the same "crime" in the United States.

All of this though is immaterial when you examine why the miscreants cited in these articles reacted as they did. If someone took the position that you shouldn't complain about the punishment you receive if you commit a crime in a foreign land, and applied it consistently across the board, I would still take issue with the position, but I wouldn't consider them vile...though I would also expect them to take a similar position to crime and punishment in America.

The people cited in these articles, of course, would not apply that position consistently across the board, and certainly not in terms of US crime and punishment. No, they took the position because Warmbier was a white, middle-class, male, heterosexual, a privileged "Frat Boy," and the symbol of a class of people they hate, and it afforded them the opportunity to not only express their hatred, but to gloat about the horrific fate in store for this hated figure.

None of them knew anything about Otto Warmbier the person other than he seemed to fit all of the criteria required to be a loathsome individual deserving of punishment. None of them had any idea as to whether or not the regime's allegations were true, nor had the slightest interest in questioning them. All of them knew what that punishment was likely to entail, and they were particularly gleeful that this perfect symbol of what they hate was going to receive this punishment because, it seemed to them, that he had triggered it by exhibiting his sense of that most heinous of human characteristics, privilege. The irony was too delicious, and that it meant Warmbier's life was to be ruined, only made it sweeter.

Warmbier's death due to brutal torture wasn't a certainty, but his brutal torture was. Anyone who claims they truly believed that a) Warmbier's sentence would have a rational connection to the severity of his "crime" or b) 15 years of hard labor in a North Korean prison wouldn't be a cakewalk but would be no harsher than the time spent by the oppressed masses unjustly imprisoned in America, is either a liar or an ignorant fool. (An additional note about (b): Even if the treatment of prisoners in NK jails is no worse than that found in US prisons (and it is much worse) Otto Warmbier is not responsible for the conditions in US prisons or whether or not any inmates have been unjustly incarcerated. There is no basis, at all, for viewing Warmbier's fate as ironic. Such thinking is simply another demonstration of the broad and indiscriminate hatred of the people)

Hatred is poisonous. It isn't more poisonous if it is based on race, gender, class or sexual orientation and it isn't more poisonous if, as in the case of Warmbier's critics, it is based on a mix of two or more of them but, make no mistake, his critics certainly believe this to be the case and each one of them each has displayed that their hatred for Warmbier and those they believe he symbolizes, is based on physical traits and accidents of birth, not deeds and not even words, and so by their own measuring stick, this places them squarely with all of the racists, sexists and homophobes they claim to abhor...not to mention stunning hypocrites.

edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 11:08 am
I don't think anybody here "doesn't give a crap." What do you propose we do about it?
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 12:05 pm
@Brandon9000,
I think most people here do give a "crap". It is just what to say?

My opinion - we here in the US and most of the other countries represented on A2K do not treat murders in our prisons the way this young man was treated.

So even assuming what NK claims this young man did he did not deserve any where near the punishment given to him - that is pretty obvious.

Yes he was foolish or maybe naivee but does either of these even come close to what happened to him? I'd imagine almost all of us have done something foolish.

I won't even address some of the negative crap written about him - won't give it 5 minutes of my time.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 12:19 pm
It has always puzzled me that anybody would place themselves in harms way by going into an environment so unhealthy as N Korea. But what they held him for was so trivial -
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 12:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I agree with you completely. These individuals betray what liberalism is supposed to stand for. It's nothing more and nothing less than rank bigotry, and the hypocrisy is stunning.

I wasn't aware of the kidnapping of Japanese citizens, but I'm not surprised. Stalin ordered the abduction of Soviet refugees and even foreigners on foreign soil. For example, the Swedish businessman Raoul Wallenberg, who saved the lives of thousands of Hungarian Jews, was abducted on Stalin's orders to the notorious Lubyanka prison in Moscow, where he disappeared from the rest of the world. Apparently, he was unjustly executed as a spy in spite of his nobility and great heroism. The North Korean regime was established as a Stalinist state. Apparently, it has also become a monarchy. I wonder what Karl Marx would think of that.

I'm absolutely appalled that anyone could gloat over the sort of horrible misfortune suffered by Otto Warmbier or anyone else. When I heard of his conviction and sentence, I knew he was likely to die soon. Of course, he was tortured and murdered.

When something horrible or ghastly has happened to someone, the decent impulse is to view him (or her) as a human being instead of as a member of a hated group. Hatred blinds people to the humanity of others. You're right, Finn; the hypocrisy of the individuals you've referenced in your posts is extreme and shameful.

You write very well, by the way.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 01:00 pm
@edgarblythe,
I agree. Why would anyone want to visit North Korea, anyway? I couldn't be paid to go there. I'd be too scared. These tragedies have been going on for decades.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 01:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

It has always puzzled me that anybody would place themselves in harms way by going into an environment so unhealthy as N Korea. But what they held him for was so trivial -


Naïve or ignorance
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 01:45 pm
I felt sad to hear about Otto Warmbier´s death - so unfair as in other countries with a dictator.
I was deeply chocked to read about how other Americans have written about him and made fun of him. Do journalists and others within in media have no respect anymore?
How sad for his parents and friends not only loosing a loved one, but also that person´s reputation.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 01:50 pm
Why is somebody turning this into a liberals vs conservatives thing?
saab
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 01:57 pm
@edgarblythe,
That certainly was not my intention.
I do not even know the journalists mentioned.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 03:47 pm
@wmwcjr,
I can't say with certainty, but I think Warmbier went because he thought it would be cool and that when he returned to the US he would be quite distinctive among his friends and those he socialized with as the guy who actually visited North Korea. If he did try to steal the poster I'm pretty sure it was intended as a souvenir, and a marker of his adventure.

It would also seem clear that he didn't appreciate the peril he placed himself in just by visiting NK, let alone doing anything that might be illegal. Of course he may not ever have tried to steal the poster. There is certainly no reason to give credence to anything the regime claims, and a young man he traveled with (and interestingly enough was never contacted by anyone from the Obama Administration), told a reporter that he didn't believe Otto was the sort of person who would try and steal anything and not just because he was such a good guy but because he seemed to be so by the book. This of course doesn't prove he didn't try but, I have more faith in this young man's assessment than any claim the NK regime might make. Regardless of what law might have been in place and whether or not Warmbier broke it, anyone with even a meager sense of justice would conclude that being tortured to death for such an offense is a barbaric travesty...unless of course they have the poison of blind hatred running through their veins.

Some Americans have traveled to NK because of their evangelical faith and to me this seems like support for a death wish, but of course it doesn't warrant that they be killed.

I'm fairly certain that the US government via the State Department warns all American against travelling to NK for any reason and they probably get nervous even when an American official, like Sec of State Madeline Albright does. Like when she attended a massive celebration of the regime in the Pyongyang and sitting next to the then Dear Leader Kim Jong Il smiled and applauded as he was worshiped.

The reliably liberal Washington Post wrote of the her trip and the event in a scathing editorial:

Quote:
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said she found "amazing" the pageant she watched in Pyongyang alongside North Korean leader Kim Jong Il. We found it amazing, too, but not for the same reason. We were amazed that the secretary of state would allow herself to be photographed, smiling, as 100,000 essentially enslaved laborers performed for her and one of the world's most repressive dictators. Secretary Albright clinked champagne glasses with Mr. Kim; she found him to be "very decisive and practical and serious." But about the nation's 150,000 political prisoners, she had no public comment. . . . Her silence on this repression diminished U.S. credibility, not only in North Korea but in less threatening countries where the administration chooses to speak, more openly, about human rights.


I think it's worth rationally discussing what duty the US government owes to citizens who voluntarily place themselves in peril by visiting places like North Korea and Iran, despite their warnings not to so, and particularly when the purpose of their visit may be obviously provocative, e.g. evangelical, but even if someone were to conclude that the government was not obligated to risk serious international hostilities to rescue a citizen from their voluntary folly, it would never be acceptable to take pleasure in the horrific consequences that might befall that citizen or cruelly mock them for their perceived stupidity or arrogance.

The thought that Warmbier might have been a agent of the US government crossed my mind and I'm sure the minds of many others simply because his visit was such a foolish decision to make, but given the regime's paranoia and the almost certain fact they very closely watch every foreign visitor, ever ready to pounce on one who displays the slightest hint of being up to no good, I don't know what could possibly be achieved by an agent that would be worth the risk of detection and capture. Anything is possible in this insane world, but Warmbier being a spy seems extremely improbable.

Tragically he seems to just have been a young man (pretty sure he was only 21) who took a huge risk that he likely didn't fully appreciate, and paid a terrible and entirely unjust price for his poor decision.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 04:47 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:

That certainly was not my intention.
I do not even know the journalists mentioned.

Not you.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 04:55 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:

That certainly was not my intention.
I do not even know the journalists mentioned.


Of course it wasn't and I doubt edgar meant to imply that is was your intention.

The matter of some liberals' response (or more accurately, some left-wingers' response) to this tragedy was raised by me and addressed in responses by wmwcjr. At the time I did, the thread had been left vacant beyond the originating post for several days so clearly there was no attempt made to hijack a thread with a point of view that was clearly contrary to the OP and developing discussion. I point this out only because edgar is quite fond of chastising people (and in particular me) for such behavior.

As I noted with my first post, I was commenting in conjunction with a subject that had been discussed in at least two other threads. In these discussions, a consensus had been quickly formed that hateful speech was harmful, however some members, including edgar, took strong issue with my assertion that for a long time now, hateful speech has been spewing from both sides of the aisle; in roughly equal measure. The opposing view was that the Right is vastly more guilty of this sin in terms of both frequency and severity. The disagreement with my position was so vehement that I was accused of being at best disingenuous and at worst, and most likely, deliberately deceitful. On another track someone asserted that I was simply displaying ignorance and that a modest effort at researching the matter would quickly reveal to me how stupendously wrong I was. Just to reiterate the position that drew such objection was not that the Left was was more guilty of hateful rhetoric than the Right, but that both sides are equally guilty.

Since then I have determined, for the sake of edifying my A2K friends, that it is appropriate to point out, when relevant, instances of hateful rhetoric spewing from the Left, particularly when it is clearly, as in this case, just about as despicable as this sort of noxious crap can get. Edgar and his allies in this disagreement are more than welcome to to try and prove their point by posting examples of hateful rhetoric spewed from the Right that are so clearly worse than what had been cited in the articles I've linked.

At no time in this thread have I suggested that the cruel and poisonous hatred that has been directed at poor Otto Warmbier is a "liberal thing," or, indeed, that there is any "conservative thing" here to be discussed (either in terms of accusation or defense). I don't believe nor have I even suggested that the bilious comments cited are representative of what might be considered a general liberal view of Warmbier or this matter. I feel quite sure that the great majority of people who self-identify as liberals don't agree with the positions taken by the miscreants who have been cited, and that everyone with a sense of decency finds the comments repulsive...liberals, of course, included.

I only have taken the time to explain the context of my comments because of the disingenuous nature of edgar's plaintive and passive-aggressive question concerning "Why is somebody turning this into a liberals vs conservatives thing?" He is fully aware of the discussions that have taken place on the broader subject because he was an integral participant in them, and the reference to a liberal vs conservative thing is, at best, inaccurate as explained. Edgar has tossed out what appears to a good faith effort to quash petty partisan bickering; for what purpose only he can say, however, until he posted it there was no such bickering and with it he has, inadvertently or otherwise, opened the door to it.

Unfortunately you seem to have, unnecessarily, felt the sting of edgar's barb, but I assure you that not even a fevered partisan could reasonably take issue with what you wrote. Of course edgar is more than welcome to respond to this post as he sees fit... or not, but I've said my piece on the matter and see no reason to address it further
saab
 
  3  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2017 02:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Thank you for your long and very well written answer.
It is so sad, that spewing has to come up everywhere. Otto Warmbier had his personal reason to visit NK, which we can question, but not condemn.
I am thinking of his family and friends who lost a loved one.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2017 12:28 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:

It is so sad, that spewing has to come up everywhere. Otto Warmbier had his personal reason to visit NK, which we can question, but not condemn.
I am thinking of his family and friends who lost a loved one.



Agreed
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jun, 2017 04:36 pm
http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/25/exactly-what-she-deserves-professor-fired-for-saying-otto-warmbier-got-exactly-what-he-deserved/

And professor Dettwyler got exactly what she deserved.
 

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