full time moms VS full blown feminist

Hello kflux,

I'm happy to hear that you agree with women having
the same rights as men, however, it shouldn't be made
an issue of gender. We as individuals have the right
to vote, the right to own and the right to freedom.

A woman is a mother, housewife, professional, and
a feminist. We are not divided in different groups and
look up/down on one another.

Right, the feminist movement of the 60's brought us
where we stand today. They paved us the road to corporate
America and equal rights, yet today, we stand strong
in whatever position we might be in.

I am a working mother and a feminist. Now, in which
category should I be put? Why would we look down
on mothers who stay at home with the kids and call
themselves homemakers or houswives?
Actually, if anything, I admire them for having the
luxury to stay at home with the kids.

Are there any cultural changes due to the fact that women
are more independent today as they were in the 60's?

I wouldn't say cultural changes, but women certainly have
more opportunities today and therefore more options
for themselves and their children, and this is definitely
an improvement. That doesn't mean the children are
unsupervised and ill behaved, they just have a different
arrangement as they did in the 60s - it is not better or
worse for them.

i compleatly agree that most of the change was good, and i'm glade to here that you do not look down on wonem that make choises different form your own , but many do.
i have noticed it more when i left my in the buissnes world to stay at home with my childeren . when i tell someone i'm a stay at home mom , i get ignored a lot on serouse issuse , something that did not happen to me when i was working outside of the home. And an older avid feminist i know has refered to my choise as "a wast for such a smart girl".

is the direction the current feminist movement leaning tword cousing a backlash on womens culture?

although i have myself enjoyed the indopendence alowed to me through the feminist movement . there is a part of me that thinks we were in someways better off when childeren had the fulltime counsel of a perent at home , a day when familys satdown at the dinner table together every night and talked about the day behind theme and the days ahead over a home cooked meal . i wouldn't want to change that indopendence , makeing a house a home is an impotant job and deserves a little more attention and respect than it often get thease days

btw i had a 3rd option on my poll that didn't show up.

Re: full time moms VS full blown feminist
Kflux
Women (and men) should have the right to fulfil her personal aspirations (or at least, try to).
If a woman chooses - but it must be her choice, not her family or husband choice - to stay at home serving her husband and children, I dont see anything wrong in it. The only problem is the fact that in this case she stays dependent on her husban, and I think this is a great problem.
You see, when someone says women should take care of their children staying at home, they are, in general, not speaking of children, but of the husband. And this is unacceptable.

In order for that last selection to show up, you would have had to click "select" (or whatever it says) AFTER you made your last option.

Anyhow, IMO, feminism has to do with CHOICE. True, in the beginning, mothers who stayed at home were looked down upon by the dyed in the wool feminists. I do believe that was a mistake, although I understand why it happened.

Now that women are able to pull down high level jobs, are represented in many fields, each woman needs to decide for herself what her life path will be. Personally, I believe that a child who is below the age of kindergarten, needs to be with a parent. That parent can be the mother, OR the father, according to each couples' circumstances. The first five years of life are crucial to a child's personality development. I would not want to leave that teaching to a stranger.

CJ has made some great points - these issues should be the same no matter whether you are a man or woman. Men can stay home and take care of the home and children the same as a woman. There are very few women I know whether they work or stay at home that look down on women or men that are so-called homemakers. Believe me I took extended maternity leave for both my children and it is much more work to stay home. Maybe it is where you live that women are looked down upon for not working. I say everyone is different and as long as the children are not suffering and the family is working well together and happy whichever way works best for your personal situation is fine.

Funny thing is my situation is reversed. Not all, but more than not, if I meet a couple where the mom stays home and they hear I work, I get this look and some sort of comment; meaning I am not properly caring for my children. "Oh you work?"; with a disapproving tone. They never condone my husband for working, even though I earn much more money than him and use all my benefits for healthcare, etc.

It should be more a concern of whether children are being probably cared for rather than an issue that the mother needs to be the proper supervision for their children. I know several dads who do this. My mom and dad take care of my little ones when I work. I believe that qualifies for proper supervision although my husband and I both work.

A major benefit of this cultural change, no matter who cares for the children, is that dads are now more involved in raising their children. I think that is a huge plus for both the dads and the children. Also, I look at the movement more as a matter of choice rather than one being better than the other. Women and men now have the choice to work or care for their children, whereas before these choices did not exist or were extremely limited.

Kflux in same ways I think you are right about the family dinner, etc. However, I think you can still have both parents work and be very involved in your children's lives. It is much more work to organize all this, but it is definitely worth it. For example, my daughter's class is having a field trip. My daughter really wants me to chaperone this trip, so I simply took a day off work to do this. Have dinner a little later; freeze meals so all you have to do is reheat so it takes less time to prepare. Have a family night where you play games together. Take a day off work and take your child some where special.

a true feminist doesn't care whether a woman chooses to be a mom or a CEO. The point of feminism is that the woman is ABLE to choose to be a mom or a CEO or a Hooters Girl or a Supreme Court Justice.

There must not be a whole lot of true feminists out there. I've been on both sides - carreer, working mom, and stay at home mom. As a career mom, my babysitter saw my kids more than I did, but I was treated like a contributing member of society with a right to state my opinion. As a stay at home mom, my kids are definitely better off, but there is much less respect for what I do. For some reason, there is an assumption that I am somehow less intelligent or capable (and from women,not men). Or that I have the "luxury" of staying home. Luxury??????? Please - this was a decision and I have never worked harder in my life!

From my perspective, feminism was all about turning women into men and demanding that men behave more like women. Perhaps not intentionally, but that seems to be the result - feminine women are not respected. Perhaps the intent was for equal opportunity, but now it seems to be a fight for equal outcome, which is a different animal entirely.

Feminism is one of those large categories that have lots and lots of little subsets, many of which are in conflict with each other. Do all Democrats agree on everything? All Republicans? All civil rights workers, even? No.

So anything that talks about feminism and feminists as a bloc will be over-generalized, IMO.

I very much agree with Linkat's point about how the fact that men are more and more involved in childrearing is a benefit to everyone. I look forward to seeing that trend continue.

I agree with Idaho about the "luxury" comment, and add as a response to Val that a person can be both a stay-at-home mom and not dependent on her husband -- I saved a great deal of money so that I could be a stay-at-home mom, and I know lots of moms who work from home -- they're still there for their kids, but make as much (or more) as their husbands.

Of course, it's easier for families with a lot of money to have one stay-at-home parent, but that doesn't mean that all stay-at-home parents are married to someone who makes a lot of money.

Like Linkat, I've seen a range of reactions. In my old community, stay-at-home momhood was the norm, and working moms incurred some suspicion. Here, it's the opposite.

As a meta-comment, I really dislike the "vs." stuff -- it's a hallmark of oppressed minorities that they turn on each other, but it doesn't help anything. Keep making more opportunities for ANYONE to choose the combination of work and childcare that is best for that family -- stay-at-home dad, two part-time parents, onsite daycare, flextime, telecommuting, etc., etc., -- without making it Group A vs. Group B.

Idaho,

I used the term "luxury" since not all mothers who'd like
to stay home with their children have also the opportunity
to do so - in other words, they have no choice but to work.

Frankly, when I wasn't working for a while, no one treated
me differently or respected me less for being a stay at home Mother.
I did not leave my brain in front of the door and
if anyone had suggested differently, I would have
proven them wrong - right then and there!

I think, that some stay at home mothers, homemakers or
however you want to call them, feel insecure and inadequate
with their situation and from there stems the feeling of
being perceived as less respected or less intelligent, which
is nonsense.

Now having said that, I also know mothers whose sole purpose in life
is their family and they will tell you at great length about diaper rush, burping and when the first tooth came and so on. It's nice for 10 minutes but somewhere along the lines, they lose my interest.

What I'm trying to say is, it is always up to myself,
if I'm perceived as an intelligent women or not - regardless
of my status in society.

Feminism is not turning women into men: It is all about
having equal opportunities. If you take up on these opportunities
is secondary - without feminism we wouldn't have
a choice.

This is what feminism is all about: Having the opportunity to be
what you want to be, should you choose to do so!

having been a single mother myself for 4 years , after leaving an abusive relationship , believe me when i say i understand what it is to be a single mother , and a good one at that , sure it can be done , but for the last 6 mounths i've stayed at home with my children , and i must say i really have noticed a lot of positive growth , and yes I know i'm lucky to be able to be at home now , and i plan to go back to work next year when my youngest starts school . my problem is really with my ultra feminist so to be in-laws.I'll give them a thumbs up for raising such a great son for me to marry , but truly see it as a wast for me to be at home. That seem a bit insulting to me as a mother , molding a human being is a big undertaking , and should be treated with respect.

kflux,
your inlaws can only look down on you,
if you invite them to do so.

Stand your ground and prove them different.

thank you Jane

I want to say that I have complete respect for anywoman who has the patience and caring and dedication to be a stay at home mom. But there are also those women who choose either to not have kids, or they don't want to be "stuck" at home all day so they make careers. Personally, I have equal respect for both groups. It's your life and you can live it as you please.

"equal respect for both groups" . Thats what i wanted to hear, it says it all . i consider myself a feminist , it's just certain groups of hard as nails "real feminist" , that look down on women that choose any path other than their own that are pulling apart the common cause of all women.

You know, there's been a spate of opinion articles in my local paper (Melbourne, Oz) in which young women in their 20s & early 30s have criticized their feminist mothers for suggesting that women can "have it all'. These young mothers (& also those who concentrated on their careers & didn't have children) seem to think that their mothers had somehow given them the wrong message. Apparently someone should have told them about the wonders & demands of motherhood and also about their biological clocks! Quite angry in tone, these articles!

I'd love to read some of them , feel free to post them

OK, here are a few. BTW these aren't my views:

Feminism's booby trap
November 19, 2004
Is a working mother good for the child? It's a question society is too scared to ask, writes Joanna Murray-Smith.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/Feminisms-booby-trap/2004/11/18/1100748136399.html

The gen X take on the failings of feminism
November 22, 2004
One of feminism's saddest relics is the guilt many women feel at not being "perfect", writes Dina Ross.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/The-gen-X-take-on-the-failings-of-feminism/2004/11/21/1100972253493.html


How the post-feminists turned mothering into a competition
November 23, 2004
The stay-at-home perfect mother is a myth created by this ambitious generation, writes Liz Porter.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/How-the-postfeminists-turned-mothering-into-a-competition/2004/11/22/1100972323145.html

Don't let fathers off hook in parenting debate
November 22, 2004
If children get too little time with their parents, let's not automatically blame mum, writes Daniel Donahoo.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/Dont-let-fathers-off-hook-in-parenting-debate/2004/11/21/1100972253506.html