are we The Gods?

Still waiting for your description of the "way" that God would prove His existence to YOU.

Pulling your leg about "teetering" Frank, don't be rising to the bait now. It's just the cheeky Irish humour in me.

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Well...I guess I could challenge the Christian God to do something convincing.

How about this:

Next Tuesday evening...November 30th...at precisedly 7:00 pm EST...

...have the planet Neptune and all its moons completely disappear from our solar system...never ever to reappear.

I'd even be willing to "believe" the "...never ever to reappear" part...since it appears I will not be around long enough to check out the "ever" aspect.

In any case...that would CONVINCE me that a God...one who wants me to KNOW of Its existence...does in fact exist.

(We could go back into a discussion of whether or not this would constitute KNOWLEDGE...but, why bother. If there is a God...and if the God would meet that challenge...I'd accept Its existence--"knowledge" or not.)

The "proof" would have to be enormous by human standards (a relative eye blink to a God)...and would have to be predicted beforehand.

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By the way...sorry if I over-reacted to the jibe. I've re-read what I wrote...and it did have some rough edges. But you know me...a pussycat who sometimes allows his words to sound more rude than they are meant.

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Part of that whole thing about "If there is a God, why doesn't he show himself?", is that wee little idea about choice.

I believe that God wants us to actually choose to believe in him. It really isn't something that stands up well in the light of cold, hard logic, I admit.

I am a long-attending member of Alcoholics Anonymous (and I've earned my chair, if you know what I mean). It is, whether anyone knows it or not ,a very spiritual program from all accounts. One of the things I've heard suggested to agnostics is that they try to put aside their logic and unbelief for a moment, and just become willing to believe in a higher power. If they can be willing to believe (it is a little trick one does in one's heart that isn't as easy as it sounds), then there are further suggestions.

I think that willingness is a much underrated commodity.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way...sorry if I over-reacted to the jibe. I've re-read what I wrote...and it did have some rough edges. But you know me...a pussycat who sometimes allows his words to sound more rude than they are meant.

:wink: Respect.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Well...I guess I could challenge the Christian God to do something convincing.

How about this:

Next Tuesday evening...November 30th...at precisedly 7:00 pm EST...

...have the planet Neptune and all its moons completely disappear from our solar system...never ever to reappear.

Thanks for listing your example of a "way" that God could prove His existence to you.

Hypothetically speaking, I would suggest that your example of proof may be self-defeating to "God." Why? It may well be that your request could have an unknown (in human terms that is) effect on the balance of our Solar System which could be adverse to life on Earth.

So why would God indulge in such a request?

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If there were an all powerful god, it would not have to perform some astronomical miracle to convince Frank of its existence. It could do something equally miraculous, but with fewer consequences for our solar system. It could just alter Frank's mentality; just make him a believer, with no need for substantial evidence. Isn't that the way it is for all theists? They call it "faith."

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Bibliophile the BibleGuru wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Well...I guess I could challenge the Christian God to do something convincing.

How about this:

Next Tuesday evening...November 30th...at precisedly 7:00 pm EST...

...have the planet Neptune and all its moons completely disappear from our solar system...never ever to reappear.

Thanks for listing your example of a "way" that God could prove His existence to you.

Hypothetically speaking, I would suggest that your example of proof may be self-defeating to "God." Why? It may well be that your request could have an unknown (in human terms that is) effect on the balance of our Solar System which could be adverse to life on Earth.

So why would God indulge in such a request?

I am not saying the God would. You pretty much insisted that I give you a hypothetical...which I did. I am sure...if there is a God...the God is much more clever than I and could easily conceive of (and bring to fruition) unambiguous evidence of Its existence.

In any case, if there is a God...creator of everything...it should be able to do that particular little stunt without adversely impacting on life or anything else.

And absent that, It certainly could do something of comparable magnitude...as I said earlier.

If there is a God...and if that God truly wants us to KNOW It exists...It could easily make its presence KNOWN in no uncertain terms.

If you are a theist...do you suspect that after you die and attain "eternal reward"...you will not know for certain that this is God with whom you are now living?

Theists have absolutely no trouble "believing" that they will spend eternity in Heaven with their God...in intimate contact with that God. So there should be no trouble whatever supposing ways the God could make Its presence known...supposing It wants to be known.

Snood may be right. For some reason...the God may not want humans to be sure.

"Believing" that to be the case certainly must feel comfortable for theists...because that truly is what they have to do.

As for Snood's suggestion that we agnostics simply put aside their "logic and unbelief" for a moment and "believe in a higher power"...

...well, I assume that was suggested with good intentions...but it makes as little sense as me asking theists to "put aside their belief" for a second...and simply acknowledge that they are agnostics.

It ain't gonna work.

And I strongly suspect...as was pointed out by someone else earlier...that if one IS willing to "believe" in a God...it will become a self-fulfilling endeavor.

I do not know if there is a God...I do not know if there are no gods...and there is not nearly enough unambigous evidence upon which I can base any kind of reasonable guess. I personally think the people who guess there is a God....and the people who guess there are no gods....are being arbitrary in the extreme. I simply will not indulge in that. And I cannot conceive of any God worthy of a capital "G" That would be offended by that!

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Quote:

One of the things I've heard suggested to agnostics is that they try to put aside their logic and unbelief for a moment, and just become willing to believe in a higher power. If they can be willing to believe (it is a little trick one does in one's heart that isn't as easy as it sounds), then there are further suggestions.

I didn't suggest anyone do anything. I was saying what I've seen others suggest to agnostics. I also expressed the opinion that willingness is very valuable.

But I wouldn't suggest any agnostic here do anything.

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Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

Well...no one was suggesting that any God should have to prove anything.

But supposedly the god of the Bible wanted to reveal itself to humanity...and obviously has done a piss poor job of it. We were speculating here about ways it could have been done more efficiently.

But of course, people have always thought the gods have revealed themselves...for the poor deluced fools who are so afraid of the unknown they have to have gods to pray to.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

Well...no one was suggesting that any God should have to prove anything.

But supposedly the god of the Bible wanted to reveal itself to humanity...and obviously has done a piss poor job of it. We were speculating here about ways it could have been done more efficiently.

But of course, people have always thought the gods have revealed themselves...for the poor deluced fools who are so afraid of the unknown they have to have gods to pray to.

So you think by daily calling them names you accomplish what?

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snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

Well...no one was suggesting that any God should have to prove anything.

But supposedly the god of the Bible wanted to reveal itself to humanity...and obviously has done a piss poor job of it. We were speculating here about ways it could have been done more efficiently.

But of course, people have always thought the gods have revealed themselves...for the poor deluced fools who are so afraid of the unknown they have to have gods to pray to.

So you think by daily calling them names you accomplish what?

I get their attention.

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"Are we the Gods?" Speaking of polytheism, I understand that The Gods are dead and that they died laughing when they heard that one of them was proclaiming to be the only god.

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JLNobody wrote:

"Are we the Gods?" Speaking of polytheism, I understand that The Gods are dead and that they died laughing when they heard that one of them was proclaiming to be the only god.

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If we are the gods, then the gods must be crazy.

Seriously, in searching out some spiritual sites, I came across this interesting information:

http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/vishnu.htm

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Well, if we are the gods, we are in deep trouble.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Well, if we are the gods, we are in deep trouble.

But a hell of a lot less trouble than if the god of the Bible is actually a GOD...rather than a fairytale character.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

Well...no one was suggesting that any God should have to prove anything.

But supposedly the god of the Bible wanted to reveal itself to humanity...and obviously has done a piss poor job of it. We were speculating here about ways it could have been done more efficiently.

But of course, people have always thought the gods have revealed themselves...for the poor deluced fools who are so afraid of the unknown they have to have gods to pray to.

So you think by daily calling them names you accomplish what?

I get their attention.

I think that's the most honest thing you've said here in weeks.

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snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
snood wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Hi Snood,

I, too, am a friend of Bill's!

I don't understand why anyone would think that God should have to prove anything.

Well...no one was suggesting that any God should have to prove anything.

But supposedly the god of the Bible wanted to reveal itself to humanity...and obviously has done a piss poor job of it. We were speculating here about ways it could have been done more efficiently.

But of course, people have always thought the gods have revealed themselves...for the poor deluced fools who are so afraid of the unknown they have to have gods to pray to.

So you think by daily calling them names you accomplish what?

I get their attention.

I think that's the most honest thing you've said here in weeks.

Thank you...

...I think.

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are we The Gods?

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