Meditational Experiences.

It is "love." It may be an attribute of god in some cases, and may be the supreme virtue in other.

bm

Re: Meditational Experiences.
Why not categorize it as a simple state of mind?
And how relevant do you think those meditations are?
And why fear the word "spiritual"? In the moment I am being spiritual, and meditating, because I interpret, try to understand, and reply to another person ideas.

(sorry for answering with questions)

I have gone in for meditation from time to time, but I never connected it with a god-like or spiritual state. I think that human beings are not totally aware of the mental states that one may achieve through meditation..........but, IMO, it is merely another physical manifestation, with nothing beyond that.

To amplify, I think that there is a lot about our own bodies that we are just beginning to understand. People, from time immemorial, have ascribed new knowledge about our being as "miracles" or god-like states. I just cannot see the rational justification for those conclusions. For me, it is learning more and more about ourselves as humans, and using that knowledge to our advantage.

Phoenix32890

I do not doubt your meditational experiences but the language you use above is problematic for the following reasons.

(1) You talk about learning about "ourselves" in general, and I would agree to that, but the particular state I describe is characterized by the "absence of self".
(2) Similarly "learning to our advantage" implies "achieving/striving" which is antithetical to the particular meditational realization of the futility of such striving.

In the language of the mystic "where the self is, truth is not".

Val,

"State of mind" is fine but there seems to be a qualitative essence which tends to differentiate it from other states.

I agree with Fresco. That certainly what is taught in the belief systems that suggest meditation.

Of course, we don't know if there truly ever is an "absense of self"...but...what the heck.




Another interesting teaching of these belief systems.

But there is little to suggest it has any real meaning...and probably should be treated a lot like, "...one nation, under God..." or "...in God we trust."

Frank,

You seem to understand this pretty well . Maybe you've been indulging a little yourself ! I can't of course accept your term "belief system" because no "system" is involved...indeed an "awareness of the arbitrariness of ALL systems"

Bluesky & Satt.

It is true that the word "love" is evoked in this "state" but it has no associated "urge to act" which might occur in "love of a person" say....nor would I say there was a sense of attachment....more one of detachment and perhaps "resigned (non-judgemental) tolerance".

I am not a regular meditator and cannot claim that the state I describe has much persistance except at the intellectual level. Perhaps more regular practitioners have some comment to make.

The feeling of compassion and oneness. I have never meditated in the sense that many of you may have, but I do have an idea about compassion: With passion.
Oneness: "I don't love you because together we are one; I love you because together we are two."

Still exploring, Fresco.

First, I would never enter a belief system that touted "absence of self" as a value. To me, the self is primary.On the other hand, meditation HAS been used by many mystical groups to search for this so-called "absence of self".

What I am saying is that meditation can also enable people to reach a heightened state of self awareness, stress relief, and possibly, the key to certain forms of healing. both physical and mental.

There can be alertness but not relaxation, like when driving thru some storm. And then there can be relaxation, like after few beers, but then alertness takes a back seat.

Some moments in meditatiobn can be strange in the sense that they are wakeful, charged yet full of relaxation. Feels like love. It's a haphazard discovery that vanishes every time the analysis kick in.

Phoenix

Yes, I seem to remember discussing this on the "self" thread.

Try this: the move from self to SELF(self-awareness) in dualistic microcosm evolves towards the move SELF to UN-SELF in non-dualistic macrocosm.

I hope this is not too cryptic !

NB. Your statement.....

"First, I would never enter a belief system that touted "absence of self" as a value"

....... is perhaps a tautology :wink:

Well, er,

Okay try:

That which sees the triviality of daily "self attachments" and thereby attempts to control them, is itself observed by something that sees (but doesn't judge) the triviality of attempting to control anything at all(because control is itself "attachment").

Good thread, Fresco. I've meditated daily (mainly soto zen's shikantaza and Krishnamurti methods of "just seeing" experience) for thirty years. I am not a good test for the effectiveness of meditation. I have been very persistent, but I have not revealed any special talent for mysticism, no great flashes of insight. Nevertheless, I would like to share some of my mild "intuitions" for what they are worth.
First, let me agree with Letty, we are all one AND many, and both are good grounds for loving one another. Like Phoenix, I would not want to be totally selfless (while alive); in this world that would be suicidal.The universality of the illusion of ego reflections its functionality for human survival. But I do think it is profoundly desireable to realize the true nature of ego/self. In a sense meditation enables you to both have and not have ego simultaneously; you use it but "see through" it. Ego, lower case self (small mind), whatever we call it, is, as Fresco suggests, a delusion (albeit a functional and necessary one). The point of mediation, as I understand it, is to realize the delusion-making process and discover one's true Self (Big Mind), which is, essentially, all there is: Reality.

Don't balk, Frank. I have no theoretical "knowledge" of the empirical or ontological nature of this Reality. I only sense that it is not separate from, and surrounding, me. This sense of Self generates a feeling of being at home whereever you are and of being able to accept your experiences (including emotions), regardless of their nature. It is, I think, a kind of peace amidst the turmoils, passions, and actions of one's life--like the quite eye of a violent storm. It is not a theoretical insight--not something one can argue for--it is a predisposition, a kind of "spiritual" healthiness encouraged by the nutritious practice of meditation.

Fresco & JL

I was just bustin' balls this time, folks.

You both know where I stand on the issue...and Phoenix's post allowed me an opening for what apparently turned out to be a tiny bit heavy handed attempt at humor.

We'll get serious when the moment calls for it. But right now ain't that moment.

f.

JLN,

"Quiet eye in a storm" is a good picture...and I notice you use the word "spiritual".

Frank,

Yes, we know where you stand, (or is it sit) while YOU is on vacation

Yeah, I used the term, "spiritua"l, Fresco, but with hesitation. I don't like the way it and "mystical" have been burdened with supernaturalistic and magical New Age connotations. To me both terms have to do with mental health in the highest sense (wellness in Mazlow's sense, not Freud's).