"No Child Gets Ahead"

hmmm...

Re: "No Child Gets Ahead"


I sure hope you keep your political opinions out of the classroom.

McGentrix --

First of all, I'm smarter and better educated and classier than you.
Since you would be unable to reach a conclusion based on the above statement, let me give it to you: I know what proper behavior is. BTW, there are times when a teacher is called upon to give her opinion or to act as the devil's advocate . . . but, explaining those will just confuse you.

Second, I'm from the left. For the most part, people on the left are more polite and more circumspect when it comes to political opinions. People on the right are the ones who force their tirades upon everyone and anyone.

Third, since the press has been taken over completely by the right -- witness that strange firing at CBS over the matter of the bush commander letter -- someone does have to tell the truth once in a while!

Fourth, have you had your vasectomy yet?

Sorta elitist, exclusionary, condescending, and prejudicial a statement, seems to me. Some conclusions appaently leaped at, at the very least.


A broad-brush assessment not in any way supportable in any forensically valid manner, IMO. For every Ann Coulter or Michael Moore, there's an Al Franken and a Michael Savage. Extremes are just that; extremes, and not representative of the entire. While there's nothin' wrong with bein' either "from the left" or "the right", I think it certainly insupportable to impose either predeliction on one's students. What should be taught are facts and figures, not opinions relevant to same. One's politics have no place in the classroom, other than perhaps as merely to be mentioned as personal viewpoint, one viewpoint among others.


IMO, a ludicrous proposition at every particular. Perhaps its a matter of perspective though; valid from one viewpoint but not from another. I for one do not subscribe to any viewpoint which might lend credibility to the premise. It seems to me some perceptions of "truth" are rather subjective, and heavilly influenced by personal political preferences. It seems to me as well that the ridiculous Bushophobia which afflicts some folks has totally supplanted reason, logic, and objective, critical thinkin' with agenda-driven, irrational hatred and rejection.


Classy. Yeah, real classy.

"A broad-brush assessment not in any way supportable in any forensically valid manner, IMO."

Forensically?


"For every Ann Coulter or Michael Moore, there's an Al Franken and a Michael Savage."

Gosh! What is this supposed to mean? Were I your English teacher, I would do more than write the word, "vague," next to this comment, because you have an improperly constructed and meaningless analogy. To begin with, the statement needs to be corrected so that the names of the righties and the lefties are in the same order, "For every Ann Coulter or Michael Moore, there's a Michael Savage and an Al Franken," just to be logical. However, your meaning is still veiled in mystery . . . or, perhaps, your own confusion. It looks like you are saying, "For every outspoken shrill, like Coulter and Moore, there is the more gentle Savage or Franken." But Savage is just as uncouth as Coulter, who is no lady and is one of the less mature people on the national scene.


"One's politics have no place in the classroom, other than perhaps as merely to be mentioned as personal viewpoint, one viewpoint among others."

The problem is that right leans toward censorship in a militant way. You can not deny that only people on the right fail to accept Darwin. Yet, the righties want their confusion (whether they call it Creationism or Intelligent Design) spread and warn students that to accept Evolution is to damn their souls.

Also, as I have written time and time again, when I was a member of the Marygrove College class of 1969, one of my classmates, Meryl Quigley, was the duaghter of two veterans who refused to allow her to major in political science lest the purity of her beliefs be corrupted. Meryl -- who believed that her given name was derived from Mary, which rendered her and the name saintly (it's from Merlin, the blackbird) -- majored in history. When we took the GRE, Meryl, whose mother was in the John Birch Society, scored in the second percentile, at the bottom of all college graduates. It is possible, that had her parents been more open-minded, Meryl might have learned something. It is also possible that Meryl was simply stupid.

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Timberlandko -- Your assessment of my response to the CBS firings was too inchoate and amorphous to respond to.

You use a great many words incorrectly. It looks like you've heard the words but don't know their definitions.

Consider this: if every kid in the state passed the test, it would probably mean that the test is invalid.

Wow! That really looks like something to censor.

People like Timberlandko and McGentrix fail to understand that these assessments are ridiculously expensive to administer: the money used on these tests would be better spent on text books, teachers' salaries, keeping art and music and physical education in the curriculum.

US Education spending has increased nany multiples of the inflation rate since the 1960s, with current US spending per pupil itself a multiple of the average expenditure per pupil of the dozens of nations who's students outperform US students on standardized tests. The free ride on the backs of our kids has gone on far too long. No matter how much money we throw at the classroon, literacy and graduation rayes lag the rest of the developed world - to an embarrassing extent. What we need to do is get back to core curriculm teachin', do away with tenure and sinecures, move to merit-based pay and promotion, and demand results. Quite whinin' and start workin' - forget about "instilling self esteem" and "teaching critical though methods" - gp back to readin', writin', and 'rithmetic. Today's 8th graders on average can't pass the standardized tests for 4th graders elsewhere - that's abominable, and its wholly the fault of the entrenched establishment ruling America's schools as its own personal fiefdom. Provide results, or get replaced by someone who will. Money ain't the problem, and it ain't the solution. The solution is to blow off the fads and get back to the basics - just like every country who's students outperform ours at much lower investment.

timberlandko -- Considering how abominable your spelling and syntax are, your willingness to post here is, in itself, chutzpah! Then to criticize kids currently in school . . . enough said.

When I was in Catholic elementary schools in Michigan (1953-1961), we took machine-corrected standardized tests twice a year, in January and June. Our results were charted on small graph that was sent home to our parents with that report card. We were not ranked against each other but against ourselves and a graded level of achievement: 3rd grade, first semester; third grade, second semester. By the end of 6th grade, my scores were at the college level and I simply received filled-in bars on my graphs.

Unlike today's so-called achievement tests, these were not devised by for-profit companies who have sold certain govt officials -- most of whom were probably not their schools' brightest and best -- a bill of goods. If we did poorly, the school wasn't penalized -- as it is under today's system which is solely designed to end govt supported schools and to allow parents to create a sub-standard system of private schools were junk science and creationism are taught -- but our teachers and our parents were alerted to problems. Believe me, the kids whose scores were above grade level were the ones who were proud . . . and admired!

The currect vogue for testing is just an expensive exercise in futility.


BTW -- There was some talk in the English teachers' lounge at AHS about the people who continually have kids. The biggest families (some of them up to 8 kids) are all families in which the kids are in special needs classrooms. This is an expensive community in which to live, with the average single family house coming in at $500,000 and the older condos with two bedrooms at more than $350,000. The town is continguous with Cambridge, MA, home of Harvard and MIT.

Many if parents would content themselves with one child that they 1.) breast-fed; 2.) read to; 3.) introduced to basic culture, the schools wouldn't have such an up-hill battle.

P.S.
Timberlandko -- I know you wouldn't be able to figure this out but part of the cost of education includes the construction, maintenance and supplying of utilities to school buildings. In a community in which the average price of a standard (8-room, 4-bedroom, 2 bath home) exceeds 3/4 of a Million dollars, the price of a school building will also be high.

When heating the above house to a measly 58 degrees by day and 50 degrees at night runs to nearly $300 for 14-17 days, imagine the cost of heating a school.

POM, where did I criticize the kids in our schools? My disaffection is reserved for those responsible for the kids not bein' taught. There isn't anything wrong with the kids, the problem is the US public education establishment. As for the infrastructure cost of education, cuttin' edge architecture, nicely appointed staff lounges, elaborate theaters, Olympic-size pools, lavish landscaping', and exorbitant Admin salaries haven't a damned thing to do with education. Knockin' that nonsense off would save a few $Billion - quite a few $Billion. So would tyin' pay and advancement to merit - achieve goals or get outta the way. Standardized testing is the only way to provide a metric for that. I certainly can understand the opposition of the educational establishment regardin' bein' held accountable - its tough to give up a free ride.

Oh, and in as much as I rarely proof read or spellcheck my posts (I really oughtta, I know - just too lazy), I've no quarrel at all with folks takin' me to task for spellin' errors and typos - but grammar and syntax? C'mon, now. I may be sloppy once in a while, but I'm pretty much in accordance with Strunk - or any other style book. The nuns pretty well pounded that into me before the Jebbies really hammered it home. Never the less, if it makes ya feel better, go ahead and attack the messenger, ignore the message. Style over substance seems to be the anthem of the educational establishment, anyhow.

And no need to be formal - "timber" will do.

POM, where did I criticize the kids in our schools? My disaffection is reserved for those responsible for the kids not bein' taught.

WHAT ABOUT THE PARENTS WHO SEND THEIR KIDS TO KINDERGARTEN WITHOUT KNOWING NURSERY RHYMES? (BASIC CULTURE AND MEMORY DEVELOPMENT) WITHOUT KNOWING COLORS OR HOW TO COUNT TO TEN OR WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO RECITE THE ALPHABET?

THIS IS HAPPENING IN AFFLUENT, WHITE, UPPER MIDDLE CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS.

WHAT ABOUT THE PARENTS WHO SEND THEIR KIDS TO NURSERY SCHOOL WITHOUT HAVING BEEN TOILET TRAINED, WHICH, IN MASSACHUSETTS, IS AGAINST THE LAW?
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There isn't anything wrong with the kids, the problem is the US public education establishment.

LISTEN. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NOT EVERY CHILD HAS AN IQ OF 140? THAT, AS I PREVIOUSLY WROTE, FOR EVERY 16 Y/O KID WHO WRITES LIKE A GRADUATE STUDENT AND WILL JOYFULLY BE ADMITTED EARLY TO YALE, THERE IS ONE WHO SPELLS THE FIRST PERSON PLURAL POSSESSIVE, "O-W-E-R."

THE GROUP THAT MUST OVERCOME BOTH THE LITTLE SAVAGES, DESCRIBED IN THE FIRST RESPONSE, AND THOSE WHO SIMPLY LACK BRAINS, DESCRIBED IN THE SECOND, ARE MEMBERS OF THE "US PUBLIC EDUCATION ESTABLISHMENT."
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As for the infrastructure cost of education, cuttin' edge architecture, nicely appointed staff lounges, elaborate theaters, Olympic-size pools, lavish landscaping', and exorbitant Admin salaries haven't a damned thing to do with education.

AH! A TYPICAL REPUBLICAN OBFUSCATION! YOU MAY NOT BE LITERATE (AND THE EDUCATION ESTABLISHMENT DID FAIL YOU BUT, THEN AGAIN, MAYBE YOU WERE SENT TO SCHOOL UNPREPARED BY YOUR PARENTS), BUT YOU UNDERSTAND THE MECHANICS OF DIFFUSING THE ANSWER IN A TONE OF HIGH DUDGEON.

NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CUTTING EDGE ARCHITECTURE. THERE IS AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL HERE IN ARLINGTON THAT WAS LITERALLY FALLING APART. STUFF CONTINUALLY RAINED DOWN FROM THE CEILINGS ON THE KIDS. THERE IS ANOTHER, BUILT IN THE 1950S, WITH TOTALLY WORN OUT FLOORS, INADEQUATE LIGHTING, ALUMINUM WINDOWS THAT LET IN SO MUCH COLD THAT THE TOWN COULD NO LONGER AFFORD TO HEAT IT, THAT HAD TO BE TORN DOWN BECAUSE IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE TO MEND.

AS FOR OLYMPIC SIZE POOLS, WELL, WINCHESTER, A TOWN WHOSE SCHOOLS ARE CONSTANTLY IN THE MASSACHUSETTS' ACADEMIC TOP TEN, HAS NO POOL. SWIM TEAM MEMBERS USE THE POOL IN ANOTHER TOWN. ARLINGTON HAS NO POOL.

GROW UP AND ARGUE ON THE ADULT LEVEL.
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So would tyin' pay and advancement to merit - achieve goals or get outta the way.

AGAIN, WHO IS TO JUDGE MERIT? MY OWN CASE AS A JUNIOR HIGH TEACHER IN CENTER LINE, MI, IS A GOOD ILLUSTRATION. UNLIKE SOME OF MY FELLOWS, I HAD REAL DEGREES. I WAS ALSO YOUNG AND ATTRACTIVE. I DRESSED MORE PROFESSIONALLY. I USED AN EASIER TEXT FOR MY 7TH GRADERS WHO HAD DIFFICULTY READING AND RAISED THEIR READING LEVELS. I TAUGHT ACROSS THE CURRICULUM.

HOWEVER, I WAS ACCUSED OF NOT WEARING A BRA ONE DAY AND NOTHING WAS EVER RIGHT FROM THEN ON. THAT PRINCIPLE HAD NO BUSINESS EVALUATING ANYONE.
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Standardized testing is the only way to provide a metric for that. I certainly can understand the opposition of the educational establishment regardin' bein' held accountable - its tough to give up a free ride.

YOU DISREGARD HOW POOR THE QUALITY OF MOST STANDARDIZED TESTING IS. MASSACHUSETTS HAS LED THE WAY IN THE CONTENT OF THE TESTING BUT IT IS STILL EXPENSIVE TO ADMINISTER.

I RELATED MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH STANDARDIZED TESTING THAT WAS MUCH MORE STRINGENT THAN THE TESTING BEING DONE TODAY.
BUT, IT WAS DONE INEXPENSIVELY AND WITHOUT STRICTURE TO THE SCHOOL.

I SUGGEST YOU ASK YOUR COMMUNITY SCHOOL IF YOU COULD TAKE THE STANDARDIZED TEST FOR THE SEVENTH GRADE AND SEE HOW YOU DO.

FURTHERMORE, THERE IS NO FREE RIDE. COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO COULD NOT QUALIFY TO TEACH, THIS WOULD BE FUNNY, WERE IT NOT SO PATHETIC.

TEACHERS ARE EVALUATED BY THE PRINICIPLE AND THE ASSISTANT THREE TIMES EACH YEAR UNTIL THEY ACHIEVE A FULL, PROFESSIONAL LICENSE. AFTER THAT, THEY CONTINUE TO BE RATED BY THEIR DEPT. CHAIRS.

YOU'VE MADE A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

As I have said time and time again, the education I received at Catholic schools in suburban Detroit, finishing with high school graduation in 1965, was superior to the education my former husband received in lower level suburban Boston and in Sarasota, FL and at Goshen Academy in ME, graduating in 1960.

My kids attended public schools in Winchester, as well as the Lexington Montessori School and the Cambridge School of Weston. In both their public and private schools, the teaching of foreign language, math and science was superior to the teaching I received, as it should have been.

I wonder whether Timberlandko and that other screamer, McGentrix (?) have any kids. If so, how old are they? Where were you educated? Where are the kids going to school?

Speakin' of fools, m'dear, you've no idea what degrees certifications, and professional experience I have. For my education, I'm a product of Catholic schools, public schools, a Jesuit university and a state university, with assorted other essentially professional-level study in my field. I am in fact qualified to teach a variety of disciplines. Right up front, I lack the compassion and patience to be an effective teacher - so I don't. As to my kids, one's a Captain in the Marine Corps, currently serving his second tour in Iraq. the other is a contract Special Education teacher with the Atlanta school system and a mother of 3. Both attended public schools in a variety of locales, as when they were growin', my work moved us about all over the country. Along with their public school education, both received considerable guidance and attention at home. Both attended well-regarded private post-secondary institutions, progressing through post-graduate work. Both largely share my view of the US educational establishment.

Timberlandko -- You come across as very old and rather uneducated. Take a serious look at your work and the manner in which you argue. Exaggeration does nothing to prove a point.

As for your statement:Right up front, I lack the compassion and patience to be an effective teacher - so I don't.

It contradicts another statement of your's: Quite whinin' and start workin' - forget about "instilling self esteem" and "teaching critical though methods" - gp back to readin', writin', and 'rithmetic.

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You answer nothing posted to you; you harp on the concept of standardized testing, but you fail to define said standards and seem to be unaware of how poorly constructed some of those tests are.
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You wrote: No matter how much money we throw at the classroon, literacy and graduation rayes lag the rest of the developed world - to an embarrassing extent.

How do you address the fact that most European children leave school at 14?
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POM, where did I criticize the kids in our schools? My disaffection is reserved for those responsible for the kids not bein' taught.

"Those responsible" are the parents. Some of it can not be helped: the genetic material just isn't there. Some parents do nothing to support the demands of the teachers that kids learn. I assigned a journalism class a half hour program to watch, on a Friday night. They objected. Parents ought to have taught them that you never talk back to a teacher.
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Surely, if your daughter teaches special needs, she must feel that the state of the environment has a lot to do with the increased numbers of special needs kids today. For example, there is some evidence that autism is a kind of neurological damage, not unlike multiple sclerosis, which some doctors feel is a 20th C disease, brought on by environmental deterioration.

I remember a buncha times bein' irritated when Truman pre-empted my Saturday Mornin' radio shows. He usually came on in the Lone Ranger-Sergeant Preston of the Yukon timeslot. That reminisce does date me some, don't it? For the sake of argument, I'll submit your assessment of my academic achievement is colored somewhat by your opinion of my opinion. I submit further you have provided no counter argument, but rather have complained, whined, and in general pursued the failed and futile defense of the American public education system typical of those responsible for its sorry and steadily declinin' state.


There is no contradiction there whatsoever. I don't pretend to teach. I gather, however, that's your specialty.



Nonsense, balderdash, and poppycock. I've challenged every feeble protest you've offered. You just don't like the answers. Fine, thats your choice. Here's another challenge; rather than rail against existing tests (and which tests might be those to which you object, and why, in what particulars, and where are these tests mandated?), try to set aside negativism, defensiveness, and Democrat-like denial and obstructionism, and set yourself the task of designing a testin' methodology with which you'd be more comfortable ... somethin' a little more rigorous than "Who can tie their shoes?" would be nice.



Quite simply by refutin' the assertion with factual counter evidence. According the EU's own EUROPEAN REPORT ON THE QUALITY OF SCHOOL EDUCATION (Download note: 85 page pdf file)



Portugal shows the lowest achievement among the EU members reported, with 40% of her " ... population of 18 to 24 year olds having achieved lower secondary education or less and not attending education or training, 1997", a metric which by inferential logic would entail the remainin' 60% of the 18-24 population had " ... achieved lower secondary education" and "attended further education or training."

A further look at the compulsory education laws of a samplin' of EU members comprisin' somethin' over 50% of the EU's population offers further factual refutation of your assertion:

Denmark: Compulsory education ages 7 through 16 (over 50% of students continue an additional optional 2 years)
France: Compulsory education ages 6 through 16
Finland: Compulsory education ages 7 through 17
Great Britain: Compulsory education ages 5 through 16
Greece: Compulsory education ages 6 through 15
Ireland: Compulsory education ages 6 through 15
Italy: Compulsory education ages 6 through 15 (only 25% of students withdraw prior to age 16)
Luxembourg: Compulsory education ages 5 through 15 (a majority of students continue up to an additional 2 years either of formal education or trade apprenticeship)
Portugal: Compulsory education ages 6 through 15
Spain: Compulsory education ages 6 through 16
Sweden: Compulsory education ages 7 through 15

Source: University of Salzburg: Education in the European Union

There are plenty more examples, but the average legal mandate for compulsory education in the EU extends to age 16, a point of fact which renders some inconvenience to your assertion that "most European children leave school at 14", it would seem to me.



I'll acknowledge discipline, respect, and home guidance are lackin' - and lay fault for that directly at the feet of the educational establishment which betrayed the parents of the current crop of students in the same way that establishment currently is betraying its active students. I see in your argument there two lame excuses, BTW:

1) - "the genetic material just isn't there" is ridiculous - are today's kids bred to a lower standard than were the kids of the past few centuries?

and

2) the very concept of " ... the demands of the teachers that kids learn" is absurd - one may expect and encourage performance with far greater success than one may demand it. I say again, "If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught" - its just that simple.



No, in fact, she doesn't. She does, however, feel a lot of kids are categorized as "special needs students" simply because they required more effort on the part of conventional teachers than those teachers felt like providin'. A large percentage of her students re-integrate quite successfully into mainstream education once brought back into line and grounded in the basics - both academic and social - that they had missed out on. She's a firm believer in and accomplished practitioner of the "Tough Love" approach. It works for her - and for the kids she works with.



Despite the appeal of those theories to some, there is no widespread consensus such is the case, and significant credible counter argument exists. Some contend embrace of such theories is nothing more than avoidance and blame-shiftin'. I happen to subscribe to that school of thought.


What was good enough for Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, Sam Clemens, Tom Edison, and Isaac Asimov is good enough for today's kids; readin', writin'. and 'rithmetic. Until a kid has those down, the kid has nothin' on which to build.

Oh, and just ta save ya a bit of effort, you needn't bother labelin' me a neocon; ain't nothin' "neo" 'bout me. At all.

Editerd to repair a screwed-up smiley - there may be a buncha typos, but I get real excersized about busted graphics - timber

<having met both of the players on this page, this is a positively fascinating thread to read>

I'm findin' it great fun, ehBeth - glad you find it to have a bit of entetainment value.

i was gonna say i can hear voices

but that just seemed




crazy



:wink:

here here