@Albuquerque,
Albuquerque wrote:
Well Frank for as far as I know you and I are human, and we use human language...
In the Human language domain we have premises for concepts and when we debate we establish clear premisses in order to debate possibilities, otherwise we are just rambling about our ignorance and not making any progress within our frame of competence...I do not care if our frame of competence is limited or finite or incomplete, I do care in making progress within our Human linguistic boundaries.
Thus it follows that in a fruitfull honest conversation about any topic we clearly establish our terms for things like "mind", "Reality", or even something as obscure as "God"!
In my past 30 years of thinking about the matter I've been making a critique of the traditionally used coinage for those concepts and showing self contradiction and internal inconsistencies in the arguments...that is as far as I am willing to go within the limits of human lingo!
As to what might be the case that is transcendental to humans talking about undefined concepts or concepts that transcend our ability to cognize them is a fruitless endeavour!
Thank you for your time, have a great day!
Thank you, Albuquerque.
I, too, have been thinking about the concepts inherent in discussions of the sort in which we are currently engaged...actually, a lot longer than the last 30 years. I came to the agnostic position at about age 25...so that means I have been at this for the last 60 years.
I honestly do not know if there is a GOD...and I cannot find a cogent argument which suggests it is more likely that there is a GOD than that there is no GOD. By the same token, I cannot find a cogent reason which suggests it is more likely that no god exists than that at least one GOD exists.
When a person asserts that "there is a GOD" or "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there is a GOD than that there is not" or "it is more likely that no god exists than that at least one GOD does"...I challenge the assertion.
Mostly, people who assert "there is a GOD" or "it is more likely that there is a GOD than that there is not"...simply pass on the challenge...and say, "I 'believe' there is...and that is that."
When I challenge someone who asserts that "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is one"...the challenge is accepted...and the person making that assertion goes from argument to argument supposedly proving, in some way, that they are correct.
All I ever do is to assert, correctly, that I do not know and that I, personally, cannot arrive at "there is...or that it is more likely that there is" or "there isn't...or that it is more likely that there isn't" using logic, reason, science, or math.
I have never heard a persuasive argument for either of those positions...and although, as I said, the people arguing the former often simply go to, "I just 'believe' there is"...the people arguing the latter refuse that option, and insist that their logic, reason, science or math is valid.
You have done that here...and that is your right.
But I maintain that all you and the others arguing your position are doing is "believing"...which I see as essentially guessing.
If you are going to insist that your logic shows there cannot be a GOD because your logic shows such an existence to be impossible...best we do what you seem to want to do...end the discussion. It has been fun...and I thank your for your time.