14
   

grandchildren never say thank you

 
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 12:43 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Ok, I just checked the statistics.

You are wrong about suicides. The suicide rate today is slightly lower than it was when you were a kid (I am assuming you were a kid sometime in the range of 1920-1960).

There weren't "broken families", but a lot of that was due to the fact that women were forced to stay in a marriage even in the case of physical abuse. When you were a kid, a polite wife would just accept when her husband beat her. And we are much kinder now to single parent families today... being a single mother in 1950 was not a very pleasant experience.

There was almost certainly more alcoholism when you were a kid than there is now. We have a much better response with treatment options that weren't available in earlier times (which it was generally swept under the rug). Of course, domestic violence (long associated with alcohol abuse) was accepted as normal when you were a kid.

I couldn't find much information about historical Cocaine and Heroin use. Both were available in America for more than a century (cocaine was legal for a while). What I know about today is that drug use is reported and treated. I couldn't find statistics, but if you have them I would be very interested to see them.



And one more thing... my kids are multi-racial. There is no time before the 1980's that life in America would have been good for them.

When you were a kid one could be racist while you were being polite. The people in the 1950s and 1960s who started pushing for the rights my family now takes for granted weren't the people with good manners. In the 1940s and 1950s, polite society used manners to punish difference and enforce conformity.

I teach my kids to be thoughtful, decent and kind. Mindlessly following social convention isn't part of that.


Demiller
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 02:31 pm
@maxdancona,
This from the New York Times:
U.S. Suicide Rate Surges to a 30-Year High

By SABRINA TAVERNISE APRIL 22, 2016

WASHINGTON — Suicide in the United States has surged to the highest levels in nearly 30 years, a federal data analysis has found, with increases in every age group except older adults. The rise was particularly steep for women. It was also substantial among middle-aged Americans, sending a signal of deep anguish from a group whose suicide rates had been stable or falling since the 1950s.
The suicide rate for middle-aged women, ages 45 to 64, jumped by 63 percent over the period of the study, while it rose by 43 percent for men in that age range, the sharpest increase for males of any age. The overall suicide rate rose by 24 percent from 1999 to 2014, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, which released the study on Friday.

Statistics on heroin:
A Primer on NY’s Heroin Epidemic
2
NYSAC
• July 2016
THE GROWING
EPIDEMIC OF
HEROIN AND
OPIOID USE
Overview
Heroin and opioid use is a major public health and safety crisis
around the world. A recent report from the United Nations Office of
Drugs and Crimes estimates that in 2013 there were 187,100 drug
related deaths worldwide in the age range of 15-64. In 2014, 28,647
deaths occurred due to prescription opioid overdoses, according to
the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. Right here in New York,
there were 2,028 reported deaths in 2014, up from 1,601 in 2013.
Opioid and heroin abuse is not limited by demographic, economic, or
geographic limitations. It effects individuals of every age, race, and
gender. The increased availability, lower price, and increased purity
of heroin in the U.S. have been identified as possible contributors
to rising rates of heroin use and overdoses. A tiny, one-dose bag of
heroin costs $5-$10 and is cheaper and more accessible than highly
controlled synthetic opiates like oxycontin or hydrocodone.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 02:35 pm
@Demiller,
We aren't talking about 30 years ago. I am assuming that you are older than 30. That would be the 1980s. We are talking about the 1950s right? Suicide in the 1950s was slightly higher than now. And, there was far less support.

You are also ignoring the problems that your generation faced. Women had no protection from domestic violence. Black people were excluded from the best schools, neighborhoods, swimming pools, buses and businesses. People who were different in any way were labeled, excluded and beaten.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. As we age, we can either be optimistic, or we can grow bitter. I see the progress being made my kids and their peers and I see many reasons to be optimistic.

We are progressing as a society. We aren't perfect, but compared to earlier generations we are becoming more accepting, and kind.

Demiller
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 02:43 pm
@maxdancona,
It appears you're wrong again according to this chart in the 5-44 year age group:

https://www.infoplease.com/us/mortality/death-rates-suicide-1950a2010
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 02:53 pm
@Demiller,
I don't think I said anything wrong. If you start picking apart age groups, sure I concede the points. But I was talking in general. It isn't a very important point anyway.

My real point is the great progress in many areas; from woman's rights, to civil rights to the way we treat disabled people. We addressing domestic violence and our society is much kinder to people who don't conform.

I wouldn't want my kids to grow up in the 1950s. The 1950s were great if you conformed (meaning you were White, Protestant and fit the proper gender stereotypes). The 1950s were pretty cruel if you didn't fit in.

My main point is this; What matters is decency and kindness and justice. Social niceties and convention aren't that important.



0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 02:58 pm
@Demiller,
I assume you read the Bible, so you also understand that Jesus was not polite. You would never say that Jesus had good manners.

Jesus was considered to be obnoxious. He didn't wash his hands. He hung out with the wrong people (including prostitutes and sinners). He yelled at the scribes and priests (the equivalent of yelling at a pastor today). He didn't follow religious conventions. One time he overturned tables. This the reason that proper people of the time didn't like him.

Jesus cared about justice and kindness. He didn't care about social convention of the rules of polite society.

It was the people who cared about good manners who had Jesus killed. I don't understand how a follower of Jesus, a man who offended and upset the upstanding citizens of the time, would ever care about manners.



Demiller
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 03:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Yes, we can be optimistic to try to change these grim statistics by improving the values of the generations behind us, and, no, we don't need to be bitter. My point is that we can start with our own children/grandchildren. Your children maybe are perfect. Congratulations if that is the case, but there are a lot of children who have a lot of problems growing up with no guidelines or values in our materialistic society. As older adults we can improve this on a one to one basis starting with our own families.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 03:09 pm
@Demiller,
Have you considered the fact that maybe your values are either wrong or outdated? You are insisting on a set of values. Our children get to decide for themselves if they agree with your values, or whether they have better values.

You are failing to see the difference between the rules and social conventions of politeness, and basic values of decency, caring and tolerance.

My kids and their peers are decent people. They are tolerant, caring and engaged, and they are making our society more inclusive for more people.

Whether or not they eat with their fingers or not is ridiculously unimportant.

Demiller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 03:17 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm sure Jesus followed the rules of cleanliness according to the Jewish Talmud. He was a Jew after all. Where did you get the information that Jesus was not clean? He pointed out peoples faults so that they could turn away from them and do what is right. He taught kindness, compassion and love for one another and I don't see how this in any way contradicts the value of showing gratitude to others by a note or a phone call.
0 Replies
 
Demiller
 
  3  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 03:29 pm
@maxdancona,
My point was that certain values such as being thoughtful and considerate never are wrong or outdated. They are just as important today as they ever were. Polite behavior is based on the mores of society that have always helped to bring civility into relationships. There is no reason in my opinion to discard these or update them for something better and I really don't understand how you can think there are better values than these.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2017 03:42 pm
@Demiller,
Again,

I care about my kids being thoughtful and kind and fair. These are values that I agree with. I even agree that they are timeless.

I don't care if my kids have good manners, or follow social customs. I don't care if they write thank you notes, or eat with their hands. Maybe these are things that they will do according to their own peer group, or maybe not. They will have to figure these things out by themselves. My kids have strong social groups that support each other and are working to make their world better. That is what really matters.

You are confusing manners with values. Read Matthew 15:1-18. People are upset because Jesus' followers (being rough working class guys) aren't washing their hands. Jesus says... look at what is important. It isn't about silly social customs and good manners, it is about caring for people's needs. These are two very different things.
peacegirl
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2017 12:21 pm
@maxdancona,
I think the confusion lies in the comparison between manners (which implies doing what you are told out of social custom), and values. So for argument's sake, let's take out the word manners and just look at values. There is quite a difference between saying thank you (in a note or on the phone), and eating with one's hands, which is often forbidden as part of social custom. Children emulate their parents, so if they want thankfulness to be part of their children's value system, they need to display it whenever the occasion arises. It will then be second nature for the children to express their thanks, not out of expectation or social custom, but out of a true heartfelt appreciation for what was given to them.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2017 12:41 pm
@peacegirl,
Do you need to train children to express a true heartfelt appreciation?

If I take my daughter to the ice cream restaurant, she expresses appreciation automatically. It isn't something I had to teach her... her favorite ice cream place is something she truly loves and her face beams and for a short time she makes it clear that I am the best father in the world. This is the most natural reaction. And it has always been true.

Sincerity has nothing to do with manners.

Manners has to do with expectations in the cases where enthusiastic reactions of gratitude aren't natural.

If someone brings me flowers when they come for a dinner I am hosting, I am expected to express gratitude even though dead plants don't excite me in the least. I will take them, say that they are beautiful (the actual appearance of the flowers is immaterial) and I will run to get a vase I have for this exact occasion (since I never buy dead plants for myself). I do this because I am expected to be grateful even though I don't like the gift, and acting naturally would be rightly considered rude because it would hurt the feelings of the gift giver. It is a social ritual; they are bringing flowers because they feel a social obligation to bring something, I am pretending to be enthusiastic about them for the same social obligation. And the social ritual functions as designed.

People who know me well will bring a nice bottle of single malt Scotch, and in that case my pleased reaction and my enthusiastic gratitude will be sincere... and social ritual in that case will be unnecessary.

Social custom steps in when our natural instincts aren't sufficient. When there is true heartfelt appreciation, you don't need manners to tell you how to act.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2017 07:17 pm
@Demiller,
Quote:
I send gifts to my grandchildren and they don't thank me. Parents do not acknowledge gifts either. What should I do?

I suggest that you call your grandchildren. Ask them if they have receive their gift. Also ask them what they think about the gift or how do they like their gift.

I suspect your grandchildren will probably respond by saying (yes, I got my gift. I like my gift. and thank you grandmom for the gift). That seem to me, to be the natural response if you call them and ask those questions.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2017 04:31 am
Friends of mine were in that situation, that from the grandchildren were around 2 years old and a few months there were no contact what so ever. Even the parents - son and daughter in law - never contacted them. Not one single word during 15 years. That was very hard.
They stopped giving gifts when the grandchildren were around 8 and 10 , but always sent cards and put a good sum of money in a bankaccount in the name of the grandchildren. As they never heard, they did not know what the kids liked.
Then one day completely unespected the son called. He was divorced, the children lived with him most of the time. Did not want to be too much with their mother.
She was the one behind the "never say thank you".
MonJay
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2017 03:08 pm
@Demiller,
Do not send anymore gifts. If they notice and ask, tell them you assumed your gifts were not getting through as you never got any acknowledgements.

Future gift idea: Box of thank you cards and postage stamps
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2017 04:09 pm
@saab,
Thanks for posting that, saab, it was sort of illuminating, but, on consideration, I would know family people differ and that sometimes, someone wins. It's just that I can still be surprised.

Your post could form a good short story.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 May, 2017 04:20 am
@ossobucotemp,
She got him to break with his old friends, by her behavior she stopped his career at a certain point.
Of course he should not have listened to her, but that is so easy to say.


0 Replies
 
MethSaferThanTHC
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2017 08:30 am
Tell your grandchildren you are gay
0 Replies
 
egyptiancat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Dec, 2019 11:52 am
My granddaughters are all adults. It is good manners to thank someone, especially a grandmother with limited resources. I taught their mom to say thank you, so I don't get it. I just asked her if my 22 year old granddaughter received the gift I sent, and she said yes, and "she says thank you." As though it was too much trouble for this grown woman to say her own thank you!
0 Replies
 
 

 
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