grandchildren never say thank you

When did society have "basic manners"? The 1950's weren't so great. People were "good mannered" on the surface, but it was a shell. Anyone who was different, or stepped out of line, or had the wrong skin color, or loved the wrong person was shunned or worse.

My grandmother was born in the 1910's. She was the daughter of immigrants, and was literally beaten if she spoke German (the native language of her parents).

She always loved business, and she was always good at it. She was given two options for a career; she could study education, or nursing. That was all that was open to her. Later in life she had the opportunity to run a Christian bookstore; and she was very good at it. But through her eighties she resented that she wasn't able to major in business in college, nor was she given the opportunity to excel in building her own business.

My kids have values that weren't seen in other generations. They are bilingual. They have good friends from multiple countries and religions that they accept as equals (something that was almost unheard of in my generation or yours). My daughter is learning to program computers and has a realistic goal of being a engineer (something not open to women in earlier times). She has a teacher, a lesbian, who is married and just had a child. This would have been a big deal for me when I was a kid... we used to use "gay" as an epithet. My daughter is completely accepting.

Our kids aren't learning to be "proper". They are learning to be accepting, and understanding and decent in a way that our parents and grandparents didn't learn.

If basic manners are what we had in the 1950s.... white picket fences hiding racism and hypocrisy... then I am glad they have been forgotten.

I think our kids are doing just fine, learning tolerance and diversity and standing for justice in a way that previous generations never learned.

Maybe we could learn a thing or two about manners from our kids and grandkids.

Demiller, I was on your side until you started banging the Jesus drum. Now I'm not.

I am a bit surprised by Ebeth and Ossobuco and not thanking.
My experience - that includes some Americans - is:
An written invitation should be answered with an written answer
Hardly anyone does it nowadays.
A mailed gift you do thank for. Either per mail,e-mail or telephone. Not only as a polite person, but so the giver knows the mail functions. Parcels do get lost.
When staying in someone´s home you do show your appriation, by either bringing a gift or inviting the host and hostess out for dinner or something else.
A written thank you note is always very welcome afterwards
After a casual dinnerit is enough to say thank you when you leave.
After a formal dinner it seems very correct to write or call to say thank you.
For an invitation you usually have to bring something - often flowers. That is
if you have agreed to stop that.

Grow up!

You forgot a key rule. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Making rules for your own behavior is fine. These are perfect reasonable rules. But you should understand that other people differ. We all have different things that we consider important and different cultural practices.

If you bring dead plants to my house when I invite you over, it will be an empty gesture... I don't like dead plants. If I know you like dead plants, and I think of it, I will bring some. But that isn't following some set rules of manners, it is me understanding what you like and caring about our relationship. What I appreciate most is that you look me in the eye and tell me you had a good time. This is about personal relationship... and everyone is different. You can't write rules about that.

If you get upset whenever someone doesn't live up to your standards and follow your rules, you are going to be miserable. That doesn't benefit anyone.

Consideration is a good thing. Judgmentalism is not.

saab didn't use the word rule. The statement was: "my experience".

There was no judgement there. There was a statement of surprise regarding ehBeth and ossobuco and then the statement of experience.

I did not make up these rules.
These are rules by which the majority of the population live by in northern Europe and rules I have met in USA.

The majority of people follow these rules? Honestly I am a little skeptical. Maybe the people with whom you associate are more likely to follow the rules appropriate for your social status.

The rules of "polite" society are always a matter of class and of generation. Europe has historically had a pretty rigid class system. These rules are made by the upper classes and benefit the upper classes.

I suspect that you will find that young people. even in Europe, are less likely to be what you consider "polite". Younger generations tend to adapt the rules to meet their own needs. I would be curious to know if you haven't found this to be the case.

I prefer real human interaction. I know the people I care about and each relationship is different. I don't care very much about social rules.

Yes, - I have to do with people of all walks of life and all ages. We have real human interaction.

An elderly French man, who was very polite and also charmy was criticed by a young French man. "All that politeness is nothing but air".
To which the older French man answered"Your are so right. It is nothing but air. But air in the tires make driving more comfortable and less bumpy."

Thank you's are welcome. They are not expected.

Gifts are not given to elicit thank you's.

The joy of giving is a gift to me, not the thank you.

I think you missread us.
Me: my dinner parties were never formal. Saying thank yous when leaving was not only fine for my guests, it was fine with me. Even our wedding wasn't formal, it was quite small, and we went to our favorite chinese restaurant afterwards. We had a party the next day, although the invitations for that were made by me in a calligraphy script for other than our work friends, that was because I was into learning calligraphy at the time. The party was a sort of several hours open house - not formal.

If you read what I said, I didn't receive any mailed gifts ever, that I can remember; my family and friends were nearby. If I did, I would have responded by phone, and quickly thanked, and then talked about how the person was doing.

I stayed in a friend's home once in a while, traveling to their area. Of course I brought something, some kind of treat, or took them out to lunch, etc.

How did you decide we didn't thank people at all?

I'm not clear how you got what you did out of my responses.

I don't think we should thank strangers personally on our name, nor should we take gifts from them..if it is a company, our work, a formal ocasion, them the company or our work personna is the entity thanking...
As for close friends no much fuss is required. A simple honest recognition of apreciation is enough. Personally I like autenticity over formal etiquette...the kind of thanks I appreciate the most is consistency in behaviour. I thumb up your reply as it seems to follow this spirit.

Ossobuco
You said you had not written a thank you note since your wedding. That was a suprise.
E-beth
You do not expect a thank you because a gift is fun to give. From that I got the impression that you do not think it is necessary to thank for a gift.

To both of you
I did not get the impression that you never say thank you. I am sure - you just as so many others say thank you many times every day. Just going shopping
we say thank you to someone opening a door, making space.Or at home someone calling unexpectingly, someone bringing the mail over.

By the way:
In Sweden is was /is common to call up also after an imformal dinner and tell how much you appriciated it. Or if you know you will see the person in the next few days then you do not have to. Then you thank them. But the Swedes say thank you a lot. Tack, tack, tack.
In Denmark it fine if you do - to chat and say hello. Not really necessary.
In Germany you do not do it at all.

In all these years since, I've not received any formal written or printed invitations from my/our friends.
We have led different lives in that regard.

In Sweden we get/got printed invitaions to weddings.
Also printed cards about someone passed away. White envelope with a black
border. Not any more.
In Germany you still get them, either in the mail or put in the mailbox when the family lives in your area.
Then you are either going to the funeral or sending a card. A card with a black or grey border and a picture inside, religious or with a symbol or some sort.
From USA we have gotten printed cards about a new baby, but never in Europe.

I married somewhat on the late side, so my conglomeration of friends were mostly already married or pleased to be single.

In Germany it is also an industry with cards for Holy Communion and Confirmation. Invitation cards and thank you cards for the gifts and money.
There are books about how to make the cards. In this case confirmation.
Invitation, menu, where to sit at the dinner table and thank you cards.
Thousands of different ones.

In Sweden the exam for the last year in school in celebrated and everything goes in the Swedish colours.
There are cards for congratuoations and thank you for what ever.

I do not restrict gifts to people I know will formally thank me.

Gift-giving is a joy (not exactly fun - it is more spiritual than that for me). It is a pleasure to share with other people. It is Christian to share. It would be un-Christian to with-hold gifts based on someone's thank you habits. Gift-giving is not a tit-for-tat thing. Not a competition of one-upmanship. The Three Wise Men did not bring gifts to the baby Jesus because they thought someone was going to thank them.

I think the Germans take the formalization of so many casual social occasions to an unpleasant place. It is one of many reasons I am glad my parents emigrated. It is not one of the reason I formally rescinded my German citizenship but it is a great symbol of what I don't like about German society.