0
   

What is reincarnation?

 
 
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 08:32 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: Why is it that the ignorant are given up to discrimination and the wise are not?
The Blessed One replied: it is because the ignorant cling to names, signs and ideas; as their minds move along these
channels they feed on multiplicities of objects and fall into the notion of and ego-soul and what belongs to it; they make
discriminations of good and bad among appearances and cling to the agreeable. As they thus cling there is a reversion to
ignorance, and karma born of greed, anger and folly, is accumulated. As the accumulation of karma goes on they become
imprisioned in a cocoon of discrimination and are thenceforth unable to free themselves from the round of birth and death.
Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like maya, like the reflection of the moon in water, that there is
no self-substance to be imagined as an ego-soul and its belongings, and that all their definite ideas rise from their false
discriminations of what exists only as it is seen of the mind itself. They do not realise that things have nothing to do with
qualify and qualifying, nor with the course of birth, abiding and destruction, and instead they assert that they are born of a
creator, of time, of atoms, of some celestial spirit. It is because the ignorant are given up to discrimination that they move
along with the stream of appearances, but it is not so with the wise.


Just one out of several occasions when the Buddha spoke on the nonexistence of self, ego or a soul.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 08:38 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Let me stop you before you go google up a bunch of quotes about Quantum Mechanics. Quantum mechanics is highly mathematical, and it is testable by experiment. There is nothing religion about Quantum mechanics (even though many religions try to pick out random terms without understanding the mathematics).


I have a master's of science degree. I don't need you telling me anything about quantum mechanics or Google.

I was testing your temperament. You claim science but are far from scientificly minded. You assume I know nothing. You assume things about Buddhism when you know nothing of it. Your attempt at lumping it with other religions is clear.

It would be like saying astrology is the same as cosmology because they both deal with things in space.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 08:53 pm
@Krumple,
Cosmology is a branch of science. It is based on testable observation backed up by mathematical models. Cosmologists make predictions based on a hypothesis, then they take careful metaphors.

Astrology is a set of religious beliefs that link observations made of the universe with philosophical beliefs, without testable models on why these "truths" are valid.

Buddhism is not a branch of science.

I don't think your metaphor works very well.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 08:56 pm
@Krumple,
Thank you for testing my temperament.

Yes you are right. I believe that Buddhism is a religion. I see no reason to believe that Buddhism is superior to any of the other religions.

All religions present a worldview and a set of values. Religion, including Buddhism, works very well at answering questions that science can't answer particularly about values and meanings.

You are making assumptions about how much I know about Buddhism. I know about science (as do you). My objection here is to the idea that Buddhism is scientific. It is not.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 09:00 pm
@maxdancona,
I would love to hear what you think is an experimental basis for the "nonexistence of self". How would one even set up an experiment to test this?

You brought up the topic in terms of science. If we can agree that this is not a scientific question, then I would be happy to drop the topic.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:09 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I would love to hear what you think is an experimental basis for the "nonexistence of self". How would one even set up an experiment to test this?

You brought up the topic in terms of science. If we can agree that this is not a scientific question, then I would be happy to drop the topic.



Just as in science. I have provided the hypothesis that there is no self. It can be verified. The experiment is available. However; just as in science, I can not just tell you the result and not provide for you the method by which it is tested.

The only way it can be tested to be verified is by entering the first Jhana samadhi. This is how the experiment is carried out.

It is not simple to enter samadhi when you are unaware of what hinders it. It is wandering mind that distracts success of samadhi.

The breath is used as the focus. Concentrating with full attention on it until the mind is focused. When it's completely focussed the mind will manifest the first Jhana response which is the realization of non-self.

Its not a trick.
Its not dogma.
Its not blind faith.

Its experiencing non-self. Completely testable. But similar to science you have to conduct the experiment to test the hypothesis.

This is why Buddhism is superior to all religions. Its the only one that reveals the non-existence of self.

The first jhana is not the only jhana. There are seven more before cessation occurs the final jhana. All if which can be experienced and verified.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 10:12 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Buddhism is not a branch of science.

I don't think your metaphor works very well.




Its because you know what cosmology and astrology are but not what Buddhism is.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 03:30 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I prefer keeping religion and science separate.

I prefer that all statements and beliefs, scientific or religious, be regarded with equal skepticism and analyzed according to commonly accepted standards of logic, factualness, and general coherence.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 06:13 am
@Krumple,


Krumple wrote:
This is why Buddhism is superior to all religions. Its the only one that reveals the non-existence of self.


Krumple, you are explaining a religious ritual. This is not a scientific experiment. You are relying on a self-reported experience that can't be objectively tested.

Some 35 year ago, I accepted Jesus into my heart. This was a very real experience at the time-- I actually felt the Spirit of God enter my heart. To reach this state I did had to prepare myself. I had spent time studying scripture and time in meditation. As you say; this was not a trick, it wasn't dogma and it wasn't blind faith. It was a very real and heartfelt experience that at the time meant a lot to me.

What you are offering me with the Jhana Samadhi is the same thing. You prepare yourself and work through the religious ritual; and at the end you "realize the non-self". Many religions have a similar ritual that leads to some sort of realization. All of them are real to the practitioners. None of them are testable scientifically.

Let's contrast that with scientific experiment.

I spent some time studying the interference of X-rays with a crystal lattice. The work I did involved measurements; there were results the were objectively analyzed. There was mathematics that was run on the measurements that came up with an answer. There was no "experience" or "realization". There were results that were analyzed and published.

Religion and Science are very different. Religion depends on enlightenment and realization; these things are necessarily subjective. Science is based on measurements and mathematics. As I keep saying, there is a very important place for religion. It is part of human experience and there are many questions that can't be addressed with the cold, objective analysis of science.

But Religion is not Science, and the more the two are kept separate the better it is for both religion and science.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 05:52 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:



Krumple wrote:
This is why Buddhism is superior to all religions. Its the only one that reveals the non-existence of self.


Krumple, you are explaining a religious ritual. This is not a scientific experiment. You are relying on a self-reported experience that can't be objectively tested.


The result is objective. All Buddhas take this practice.

maxdancona wrote:

What you are offering me with the Jhana Samadhi is the same thing. You prepare yourself and work through the religious ritual; and at the end you "realize the non-self". Many religions have a similar ritual that leads to some sort of realization. All of them are real to the practitioners. None of them are testable scientifically.


Concentrating on breathing is a ritual?
Then riding a bike is a ritual.
Walking is then a ritual.
Playing a sport is then a ritual.
Painting is then a ritual.
Writing is then a ritual.

There is nothing dogmatic. Once wandering thoughts cease the mind can then be clearly used to examine the aggregates. Its not made up nonsense or mumbo jumbo.

Your temperament is clearly not of scientific curiosity. If a person puts on a lab coat they can sell you anything and you would buy it.

This process is no different than learning a musical instrument. The point is the end result isn't something you just trick yourself into believing. Its discovering how reality actually is once the hindrances of clinging have been reduced.

Its like the novel of the wizard of Oz where they are forced to wear goggles with green tints leading them to believe the emerald city is green. Not until the goggles are removed do they discover how it really is.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 07:59 pm
@Krumple,
That's funny Krumple....

Pay no attention to the Buddha behind the curtain!
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 08:21 pm
@Krumple,
The disagreement here is whether Buddhism is superior to any other religion. Every religion claims to offer a unique access to some truth. Most religions claim that they are the only way to this truth.

In this way, Buddhism is no different than any other religion. I can tell you that Christians say very much the same thing that you are saying (with a slightly different terminology). Jesus said that if you truly follow him "you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free". The Apostle Paul said "for now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". This seems very similar to the quotes you made from Buddhism. It is not that surprising.

Of course, from within Buddhism it seems like Buddhism is a unique path to some hidden truth. I am only pointing out that in this way, Buddhism is just like every other religion.

I believe that religion is an important part of human experience, and Buddhism is part of this.

I don't believe that Buddhism is superior to any other religion.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 09:41 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Of course, from within Buddhism it seems like Buddhism is a unique path to some hidden truth.



Ah; but, which school of Buddhism are you bestowing with the title of Most Unique?

As to religious teachings and doctrines, if they offer a person peace of mind, contentment, then does it really matter if they believe theirs is the best? As long as it doesn't get forced onto anybody else, same as I feel towards atheism, it matters not, to me.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 09:43 pm
@Sturgis,
Quote:
As to religious teachings and doctrines, if they offer a person peace of mind, contentment, then does it really matter if they believe theirs is the best? As long as it doesn't get forced onto anybody else, same as I feel towards atheism, it matters not, to me.


I agree with this completely. I was pulled into this by the claim that Buddhism is backed by science. I have shenpa around the mixture of religion and science.

0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2017 11:07 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The disagreement here is whether Buddhism is superior to any other religion. Every religion claims to offer a unique access to some truth. Most religions claim that they are the only way to this truth.

In this way, Buddhism is no different than any other religion. I can tell you that Christians say very much the same thing that you are saying (with a slightly different terminology). Jesus said that if you truly follow him "you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free". The Apostle Paul said "for now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". This seems very similar to the quotes you made from Buddhism. It is not that surprising.

Of course, from within Buddhism it seems like Buddhism is a unique path to some hidden truth. I am only pointing out that in this way, Buddhism is just like every other religion.

I believe that religion is an important part of human experience, and Buddhism is part of this.

I don't believe that Buddhism is superior to any other religion.


It is because the teachings of birth and death do not exist within any of the other religions. It is because the teachings of impermanence and suffering do not exist within other religions.

The Abrahamic religions only profess heaven as the goal, but heavens still exist within samsara. They do not teach extinction of samsara.

Within the Abrahamic religions they spread ideas of murdering those who fail the commandments as justifying murder. It is inferior to teach such ideas.

They do not teach the fundamental reality. No where do they explain the nonexistence of self. No where do they teach the nonexistence of a soul. No where do they teach the aggregates.

They don't teach mindfulness of the breath method for examining reality. They do not teach the hindrances which lead to continued suffering.

Nirvana isn't a heaven or some paradise won by believing in a god. Nirvana is extinction from samsara. Heavens reside within samsara. All God's are subject to samsara. All heaven beings are subject to samsara.

The thing is all this can be verified. It isn't a dogma. It is true reality. Not something you just accept blindly. It is experienced.

Just like if you have never seen snow before. Where you live there is no snow so you have never heard anyone speak of it. But then one day a person appears and mentions snow to you. You would be perplexed. If this person just said, believe what I say, you might develope doubt that such a thing is true. But if that person taught you how to travel to a place where you can experience snow then you would know it is true.

Nothing within Buddhism suggests you should just blindly accept things said. It all can be verified as being true.

The point is you are not aware of the full extent of samsara. If I just talk about it, you will doubt such characteristics as being true. Your attachment for samsara will grow and you'll despise me for revealing the extent of samsara to you. Youll think such things can not possibly be true. "Its just religious nonsense."

The extent of samsara can be revealed. It isn't something that you are tricking your mind into believing.

Investigation is this method that reveals it is true. I gave you that method. You don't have to blindly accept any of it as true. The method will reveal it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2017 08:55 pm
@Krumple,
My first point is that there is nothing scientific about "samsura". You claim that there is... and you are making a very circular argument, once I accept "samsura" I will understand "samsura".

Science doesn't work this way. I can define Archimedes principle to you. I can define all the terms, and I can give you objective ways to measure buoyancy, mass and volume. You don't have to believe anything to make these measurement, or to repeat the experiments to show that it is true.

The biggest disagreement I have with you is your claim that if I accept your beliefs, I will see they are true. Every religion makes this claims... it isn't objective and it isn't scientific.

Samsura is a religious belief, nothing more. Science is objective and based on testable evidence that doesn't require belief to measure.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2017 08:59 pm
@maxdancona,
I also disagree with your claim that Buddhism is superior in any measurable way... in fact I don't see Buddhism as having particularly helped Buddhist societies. There is some value to "mindfulness" and some people like meditation. I dated a Buddhist woman. I didn't see it as being any more helpful in a practical way than faith in any other religion.

One thing I like about Abrahamic religions is the call to action. Moses is a great character. He saw injustice and he called out to God for deliverance. There is a reason that Moses figured very heavily into the anti-slavery and civil rights movements. It is a powerful message of standing up for justice and against oppression. Buddhist societies that I have heard of don't have a similar history.

The most meaningful religious experience I have had was sitting Shiva (part of the Jewish faith). It was a community coming together as part of a grieving process. It was very intimate, full of faith and healing for the family.

I am not saying the Abrahamic religions are superior to Buddhism... I believe that each religion serves a function to the society that developed it. But I certainly don't accept Buddhism as superior either.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2017 03:02 am
@maxdancona,
Fair argument. I upvoted you. Still with its flaws Bhudism sounds a little more deep than the Abrahamic religions to me specifically.
Buddhism makes peace with your fate. Of course you have to believe you have a fate in the first place. But that is precisely to my view what distinguishes Bhudism from younger Religions.
This is not to say that there isn't a good deal of criticism worth doing, but the essence of Bhudism is above all others civilized. For some cultures perhaps to much civilized.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2017 07:09 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Fair argument. I upvoted you. Still with its flaws Bhudism sounds a little more deep than the Abrahamic religions to me specifically.
Buddhism makes peace with your fate. Of course you have to believe you have a fate in the first place. But that is precisely to my view what distinguishes Bhudism from younger Religions.


Yes Fil! I have no problem with this statement. It is very wise and very well said. Sure, the peace of Buddhism is a plus of this religion.


0 Replies
 
 

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