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Thu 23 Mar, 2017 08:12 am
Good value, worth, beauty, inspiration, joy, happiness, love, etc. are not value judgments. They are our good (pleasant) feelings which are experiences. Sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc. are not value judgments. They are experiences. Therefore, good, worth, beauty, inspiration, joy, happiness, love, etc. are like sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc. since they are also experiences and not value judgments.
People would tell me that there is no such thing as the experience of good, the experience of bad, the experience of beauty, etc. and that these things are instead labels (descriptors) that we apply to certain situations and things. From my own personal experience, these things are not lables and there really is such a thing.
This is because there is the difference between applying labels and paying very close attention to what the experience actually is. I will give an example. If you experienced physical pain and you said that this pain was a telephone, then that would be nothing more than a word you would be applying to that pain.
But if you said that this physical pain was a burning, scratching, or stabbing sensation, then these would not be labels. This is what the experience actually is. You would be paying close attention to what it is you are experiencing and you would, therefore, know what it is you are experiencing. That also applies in my situation.
In other words, I know that my good feelings are the experience of good, the experience of beauty, the experience of love, the experience of joy/happiness, etc. and I know that my bad (unpleasant) feelings are the experience of bad, suffering, misery, pain, etc. Without the experience of any pleasant or unpleasant feelings, then I would neither have good nor bad value in my life.
I think this is something that has yet to be discovered because we currently think that good and bad are just value judgments (labels) we apply to things and situations. But if a scientist can somehow prove that good and bad are our pleasant and unpleasant feelings, then that would change everything.
That would change how we see good and bad which means there would be no more of this nonsense where people tell me that my life can still have good value and that my life can still be worth living in a dead, lifeless, mechanical state of mind without my good feelings.
You have half a point on this one. I certainly agree good and bad are experiences, but on that regard so are dreams.
What this means is that while the experiencing of those states has ontological value, such value is still relative to a deeper conceptual holistic background on which they dilute. A zero sum energy Universe metaphorically alludes to the point I am trying to make.
To resume it up, in a less abstract, less abstruse, less esoteric way, to state that every form of experience no matter how mad or far out removed is a priori a given, doesn't shred an inch of light on how it fits a context. Logic and value judgments even if relative to distinct povs are the cement that gives experiencing orientation, momentum, and guidance.
"Good" and "bad" are language artifacts to non-holistic approaches on Reality.
From where I stand one does not correct facts of Nature. Nature is correct by Necessity of Being. "Good" and "bad" are just the relative spice of apparent local conflicting povs. At best they refer to more or less energy efficient ways of going about a problem. But even there one can holistic argue that in the History of Reality "mistakes" are just apparent. That is to say, even mistakes are necessary so that perfection does not become a dull place...
The World is a imperfectly Perfect place to be.
(A strong Logician might even argue, the only possible place to be in)
@MozartLink,
Let me give ya a down to Earth approach...
For the robber getting caught is and feels bad... Same is not true to Society and Civilization.
@Fil Albuquerque,
Good feelings are the only things that can give good value and worth to a person's life. Good feelings are the only things that can allow us to perceive good value and worth in our lives just like how sight is the only thing that can allow us to visualize objects since sight and visualizing objects are the same thing.
You can claim you can visualize objects when you are blind, but that would not be so. You can also claim you have good value and that your life is worth living without your good feelings, but that would also be false.
@MozartLink,
A dose of dope can give you a good feeling but it doesn't follow it gives you good value. Good feelings without context are as a house without windows.
On that regard I rather feel through and with Reason, consonantly, then think through feelings dissonantly.
Again this is not to say you don't have half a point on what you say, but it can be totally misleading.
@Fil Albuquerque,
Actually, that good feeling induced by dope would be good value in of itself. It is good value that has nothing to do with your thinking or any context. There are two versions of good value and worth in your life. The first comes about through your thinking and your attitude. This version is where you personally define what gives your life good value and what makes your life worth living. This version is fake.
The second version is real. This second version is not a thought version, but a feeling version. In other words, as long as you are in a good mood, then your life will always have good value and your life will always be worth living regardless of how you think, what you do, what your attitude is, and what situational context these good feelings (moods) are in.
Imagine that in a given X imaginary Universe squared/cubic objects would roll down the mountain rather than slide. Forget high energy rolls are possible. You can picture it as a fantasy Universe with different "rules", but when it comes to explaining why and how the square/cube can roll you won't be able to refer to Reason. Good value requires Logic and Reason at the forefront. Good feelings while not irrational or unjustified are more "local".
The wording of "good" and "bad" without context just for the experience without Order and Reason to sustain it are useless.
Of all imaginable Universes, you want one where there is a correlation between "Good" and Reason. In fact, that's what Philosophy is all about. That which has Reason is Necessarily good, no matter how you feel about it locally.
...and this is precisely why traffic jams, tornados, and violence, have a place in our rational world. You might not get it, and feel bad along the process of suffering, but the end result for the world and the system at large is good, in the sense it is productive. Good, is what works.
@Fil Albuquerque,
But this feeling version of good does have the same attributes as the thought version (that is, logic and reason), but the only difference is that feeling good is the only way to bring good value and worth to your life. When you are at the circus and you feel excited which would be a good feeling, then you feel excited because you really like rides and want to ride them and this has good value to you.
But if you had no ability to feel good (anhedonia) and you just thought to yourself that you really want to ride those rides since you like rides and this has good value to you, then that would not bring you any good value into your life. It doesn't matter what our thoughts, situations, gestures, tones, etc. are without our good feelings; they will be nothing more than thoughts, situations, gestures, tones, etc. that will never bring any good value and worth into our lives.
@MozartLink,
No. If you haver anhedonia you won't wanna do any of those things. There is a distinction between fantasizing wanting and actually wanting. The disconect you want to force is false.
@Fil Albuquerque,
But there is a feeling version of logic and reasoning such as that example I gave with the person feeling excited for a given reason. Then there is a non-feeling version of logic and reasoning which would just be a matter of thoughts and attitudes. I am pointing out that it is only the feeling version that gives your life value and worth.
@MozartLink,
Quote:Good feelings are the only things that can give good value and worth...
Partially true. Keep in mind that a bad feeling can often lead a person to alter their habits, their patterns in day to day living. This can then take a bad experience and turn things into a future of good; therefore, I submit to you that bad feelings can also bring forth value and worth. Belatedly, yes; but, there will still be a rewarding and positive future.
@MozartLink,
Speaking about conditioning and culture throughout life you can feel pleasure by mugging and bullying people or instead picking stars in the night sky.
You see your life has meaning in spite of you or how you feel. Granting you can't feel good just by thinking alone (no one claim it was enough), but it is fortunate that feeling good can normally coincide with doing good.
...if you don't get that perhaps you don't just suffer from anedhonia...perhaps you also suffer from lack of clarity.
@Sturgis,
If she lacks the hormonal and chemical mechanism for associating doing good with feeling good then she has a point. Sociopaths have that problem.
What she fails to see is that understanding "Good" (Reason) is feeling good.
A smaller claim is that one can't be Good if one is mentally sick and self-centred.
@Fil Albuquerque,
What I wonder is if feeling good by understanding good reasoning even without your good moods really is a good feeling like a good mood, or if it is nothing more than a dead, lifeless, mechanical experience that isn't actually a good feeling, but something that is simply being defined as a good feeling. Remember, there is a difference between our personal definitions and our experiences. Just because you define an experience for yourself that you claim feels good without your good moods does not actually mean you are feeling good.
@MozartLink,
In a "normal" brain they should coincide.
Understanding you're doing good should trigger a chemical reward in your brain.
@Fil Albuquerque,
Well, I don't have that. As long as I am depressed (hopeless) due to a traumatic life event or when I don't have my good moods, then there is no way I can feel good. The only way I can feel good again is when I recover from that depression or absence of my good moods and finally have my good moods back to me. Therefore, my good moods are the only source of feeling good.
@MozartLink,
You can always try a lollypop when you behave...
(now seriously get some help)
@Fil Albuquerque,
I don't need help. I am doing just fine now. I am finally out of those traumatic events in my life.
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:
But this feeling version of good does have the same attributes as the thought version (that is, logic and reason), but the only difference is that feeling good is the only way to bring good value and worth to your life. When you are at the circus and you feel excited which would be a good feeling, then you feel excited because you really like rides and want to ride them and this has good value to you.
But if you had no ability to feel good (anhedonia) and you just thought to yourself that you really want to ride those rides since you like rides and this has good value to you, then that would not bring you any good value into your life. It doesn't matter what our thoughts, situations, gestures, tones, etc. are without our good feelings; they will be nothing more than thoughts, situations, gestures, tones, etc. that will never bring any good value and worth into our lives.
A commercial on depression according to MozartLink;
"Are you depressed? Why waste money on expensive prescription medications when you can order today our one shot gun for only $9.99. You get a gun and a single bullet. Since you are depressed your life has no value or meaning so you might as well order today!"
@MozartLink,
MozartLink wrote:Good value, worth, beauty, inspiration, joy, happiness, love, etc. are not value judgments. They are our good (pleasant) feelings which are experiences. Sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc. are not value judgments. They are experiences. Therefore, good, worth, beauty, inspiration, joy, happiness, love, etc. are like sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc. since they are also experiences and not value judgments.
This paragraph makes no sense. It poses a host of false, nonsensical equivalencies, and pretends that it constitutes a logical argument.
Try harder or stahp.
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