Teaching grammar or not?

i don't know who these so-called "theorists" are, but proper grammar is essential to speaking clearly and writing correctly...

Phil might be right Far. However I wonder if all the technical terms don't just confuse the kids

Some theorists of the comnunicative approach say that language should be raught communucatively and that one of the principles of the communicative approach is limitting the teaching of grammar.

Indeed Far, as an oldster I've been participating all my life, with even a little success, but don't 'mem' a single gramm term

You just gotta listen and read, and do it a lot...and think deeply about much detail. For instance is " 'mem' " writ right

Two " ' " 's make it look like i'm quoting somebody, which I'm not

Thanks Far for this opportunity to excretes my compulsive personality

Interesting no note at this point, that should've been 'exercise.' Thus there's a God and he's tellin' us sumthin'

Based on personal experience, I agree. Learning grammar intensively should come after a language learner has obtained a level of fluency.

What level of fluency do you think is the right one?
Just one single example how grammar can help you to understand new language:
Teaching English it helps to explain the differnce between adverb and adjectiv.
One ends with -ly. That is the adverb and it is in front of a verb.
Highly appriciated
Adjectiv is in front of a substantiv.
You can´t just say now and then a word ends with -ly and sometimes not.

Saab that's a good q. Maybe we should earlier learn the easy ones like 'noun,' 'verb,' 'adjective,' and 'adverb;' then later, maybe high school, such terms as....

Sorry I can't think of a single one

When learning German there was a lot of focus on grammar in a booring way. Learning English of course we had to learn grammar too, but in a easier way.

German grammar tests in school:
One line under the subject, two under verbs, a cross under prepositons and put under the substantiv either dativ or accusativ. Then adj or adv under a word. Depending on if it was adjectiv or adverb. There was even more.
I can´t remember anybody who did not find their German teacher strict and unfair. Not just my generation.
And English teachers - at least the ones we had - were strict, kind and fair.
On the other hand friends in Germany found their German teachers as rule nice, kind and fair.
Guess they exported the worst ones.

When I say learning grammar, I mean it in an active sense. Obviously to become more fluent in a language, a language learner has to learn grammar, but a lot of time that is done passively. They're learning it because they have memorized the patterns they hear from their daily practice with speakers of the language they are trying to learn. In other words, they're learning the language communicatively and adoping the proper grammar without understanding the rules behind it. Exposure to people speaking the language and memorizing the common phrases they say is far more important than studying grammar, in the beginning. Language learners should aim to increase their interactions with native speakers rather than allot a significant amount of time to learning, say, tense patterns if they want to gain fluency in a new language.

This is just my opinion, though, based on personal experience. I speak many languages because of exposure. I've spent more time studying Japanese grammar than I have the grammar of any other language--in the beginning, that is--and I've struggled most with gaining fluency in the Japanese language. I can think of no other reason than lack of exposure.

And it's not that grammar isn't important. It's just that no one needs to actively study grammar to learn a language.

Very well, that is how children learn to speak a language. Being active. Being corrected by their parents and other older people around.
Learners should aim to increase their interactions with native speakers - is what you think.
I tell you it is not that easy to find a native speaker - and preferable a native speaker who is good in correcting my mistakes.

As grammar is not really taught anymore at schools the native language is being watered out. Older people find so many grammatical mistakes in the newspapers now adays.

Never said learning grammar is not important. I think it should be studied after someone has obtained a level of fluency. By that I guess I mean can speak conversationally. Can talk at length about mundane topics like their daily schedule, what they think of a meal, their plans for the weekend, in life. Then, they can start studying the grammar. They can identify things they are saying or writing wrong and fix them, which is a far more difficult task when they are first learning and cannot string together diverse sentences in order to even apply the grammar.

The level you talk about is beginner´s level.
Students have to learn the difference between present tense and future.

The level im talking about includes people who can speak, not necessarily write, and hold a conversation and understand whats being said to them. I don't want to make assumptions but I dont think you understand what learning communicatively is. Learning communicatively does not mean a learner will not differentiate between past and future tense. It means they will not be explicitly taught to differentiate them. That is what I mean by passive, not active, learning of grammar.

I have been teaching for a few years so that the language being taught is the only language spoken in the classroom.
The majority still want certain grammar explanations in their native language

I only had one semester of German at a US university, and I enjoyed it. Had to give it up since the classes were given too far from the science buildings for me to run to and get there in time or even not too late. My point is that I remember it as rigorous but also fun to learn.

I'm probably odd - I tend to like grammar, whether I always obey it or not, even now. The nuns of my time taught a fair amount of english grammar quite early, which may be part of why I still like it.

I craved grammar when I took something like seven quarters of italian when I was about fifty and was well provided with it - as well as conversation, lab time, reading various works in italian, etc.

No, you are not odd in liking grammar.
Men seem to tend to like it more than women - my personal observation.
Mathematicians seem to like grammar.
I have a feeling that some find it is logical to learn grammar.
But I am against when it is taught so servere, so you really do not dare to talk.

I certainly agree with that, your comment re severity.

I forgot to mention I had four years of latin in high sch00l. Nuns teaching, although two different ones depending on which year of latin it was. I remember a great deal of homework and a lot of memorizing and repetition on how to construct sentences, but am glad I stayed with it. Am very sorry I somehow didn't take french as well, somewhere along the line, maybe after I got to university and away from the nuns (long story). To this day, I'm a complete fool in french except that I can usually figure out menus in french restaurants - though I'll massacre saying the words. I've not enough knowledge in my language brain to figure out recipes in french, though a lot of them are available in english.

I took spanish for one day. The teacher took three hours to teach us to count to ten in spanish, so I went home and semi taught myself (this was in adult classes at a local high school). I mostly learned from my smartass group (SAG) of latina girlfriends, especially when we went as a group to Mexico several times. That was the most natural learning, I think. I could, at least for some while, get along in Mexico with boyfriend or husband who didn't speak spanish.. my being the one to talk when needed.

There are discussions regarding to learn Latin to learn other languages easier.
I think it depends on what language you want to learn.
In Germany many of the older generation maintain one should learn Latin first.
This discussion ended in Sweden and I think the other Scandinavian countries in the middle of 1920 (?)
The Scandinavians are as a rule better in English than the Germans - so there the idea of Latin does not prove the correctnes.
I find so many words in Danish which have sneaked into English - that I sometimes feel like first learn Danish and then English