The Red Shift without Expansion

@layman,

layman wrote:

I should have asked this first: Do you agree that "the equation" doesn't, and can't, answer that question, Gent?

The way you asked it? No.

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

layman wrote:

I should have asked this first: Do you agree that "the equation" doesn't, and can't, answer that question, Gent?

The way you asked it? No.

No, you don't agree, you mean? Or do you mean, no, it doesn't answer the question?

1 Reply

@layman,

The way you asked the question, that would not be what I would use to answer your question. Because it's relative to each person.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

The way you asked the question, that would not be what I would use to answer your question. Because it's relative to each person.

Well, OK, we can come back to that. But right now I'm asking about what "the equation" says.

Is there something in those formulatic numbers that says "the guy on the train is moving," or that "the guy on the ground is moving?"

2 Replies

@layman,

Again, it's relative. The guy on the train, to him he is not moving. To the guy sitting, he is not moving either. From their perspective, the other is moving. That is why it is relative. From an outside observer looking at a closed system, the guy on the train would be moving.

2 Replies

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Again, it's relative. The guy on the train, to him he is not moving. To the guy sitting, he is not moving either. From their perspective, the other is moving. That is why it is relative. From an outside observer looking at a closed system, the guy on the train would be moving.

OK, this is what I said we could come back to, and I will. But, in the meantime, the question is: does "the equation" tell you that? One thing I'm trying to clarify here is the role that "math" plays in giving you the "correct answer."

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

Gent, I'm not sure if you went to eat dinner, or if you don't care to answer the question, or if you're just thinking about your answer, or if you don't understand the question, or if..something else.

In the meantime I'll give you my answer, and you can just say if you agree with it, if you want.

The formula says that IF the guy on the train is the one moving, THEN his watch will slow down.

The formula also says that IF the guy on the ground is the one moving, THEN his watch will slow down.

But it doesn't tell you who is moving. It just serves to quantify "how much" a watch will slow down, under any given conditions.

The (or at least one) point here is that it is extremely misguided to say that any formula, in itself, gives you a "correct" answer to any given real-life situation.

But if the formula doesn't give you the answer, what does? Philosophy, as Max might want to say?

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@layman,

Quote:

In effect that equation says that, relative to a "stationary" one, a moving clock will slow down (and its length will contract). But does it tell you how it should be applied? Does it tell you who is "moving?"

What Layman is saying, in effect, is "Anything that I can't understand isn't true".

Generally this is covered in the first semester of the sophomore year in any Physics or Engineering program. These students not only learn the math, but they are given problem sets to solve. And of course, these functions are used in experiments.

2 Replies

@layman,

Let's see how Layman answers equally silly questions that don't have to do with clocks.

Answer this question, Layman.

How far away (in miles) is Chicago?

Someone in Boston says that Chicago is 850 miles away.
Someone in Chicago says that Boston is 850 miles away.

They can't both be correct, can they?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

If you're gunna get involved, Max, then just answer the damn question, eh?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let's see how Layman answers equally silly questions that don't have to do with clocks.

Answer this question, Layman.

How far away (in miles) is Chicago?

I couldn't possibly know that until someone gives me a mathematical formula which gives me the "correct answer," eh, Max?

0 Replies

@layman,

I will give you the answer that everyone who has taken a few courses in undergraduate Physics knows. In fact I have given you this answer.

You reject anything that you don't understand as untrue. In doing so, you are saying that everything taught in Universities and accepted by people who have taken the time to earn an education in science is wrong.

It seems like you reject Galileo's understanding of relativity (there is a Galilean relativity). Physicists have understood this for 500 years.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Does the equation tell you who's moving, Max?

I haven't seen any answer to that--just more irrelevant diatribe from you, that's all.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

in chem and geophys we did the same. Except in beginning Phys chem, we always were required to deal in dimensional equivalents (L/t, LL, etc etc). To this day, I always go through that to make sure that I know the difference between a "formula" and an equation , and whether the damn thing can even be solved for what i need.

I In geophysics students deal with gravity in both the NEwtonian and the Relativistic sense)

1 Reply

@layman,

Did you read my post about how far away is Chicago?

You can't answer that question for the same reason that you can't answer (in an absolute sense) who is moving.

Or can you answer the question; How far away is Chicago?

It is a nonsense question. You understand that, right?

1 Reply

@farmerman,

I worked for a while with experts in algebra education to develop a curriculum. We focused on functions. I think that is the correct term for what I am talking about. I get sloppy with terminology sometimes.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You can't answer that question for the same reason that you can't answer (in an absolute sense) who is moving.

So then your answer is:

No, the equation doesn't tell you who's moving, in fact NOTHING can ever tell you who's moving, therefore there is NO answer.

So, then, how is it that you claim that the "equation" gives you the correct answer.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

They dont much use that term(Y is a (function) of X) any more in introductory calc do they? most all kids get differential calc in high school.
I got linear algebra as a AP math qnd , unless I was onw of the earliest programmers alive, I had no friggin idea why we even used linear algebra except for carpentry and salesmen routes

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@layman,

Quote:

So then your answer is:

No, the equation doesn't tell you who's moving, in fact NOTHING can ever tell you who's moving, therefore there is NO answer.

No that is not my answer.

My answer is that every velociy must be measured compared to a reference point. Otherwise the question has no meaning.

Just like the question "How far is Chicago" is meaningless unless I specify where I am measureing from (or it is implied), so is the question "How fast is the spaceship moving meaningless.

If you can tell me (in an absolute sense) How far Chicago is, and both Farmerman an I agree with the number, then you will proven me wrong.

So, How far away is Chicago?

Just becuase you don't understand this doesn't mean that it is wrong.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

My answer is that every velociy must be measured compared to a reference point. Otherwise the question has no meaning.

OK, first things first. What tells you that?

1. The equation?
2. Philosophy?
3. Scientific theory?
4. Something else?

I will note that your "answer" does not even begin to address the question I asked, so I'm asking again.

1 Reply

The Red Shift without Expansion

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