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Are Simunitions conversion kits firearms?

 
 
stuh505
 
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 03:01 pm
Simunitions is a company that sells replacement barrels for firearms that convert the firearm into being able to fire paintballs for training purposes.

www.simunitions.com

Is a Simunitions gun a class 3 firearm?

Quote:
There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law, title
1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns (rifles and
shotguns), handguns, silencer, and firearm frames or receivers.
Most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
NFA weapons
. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
Firearms Act (codified at 26 U.S.C. sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA.
Title 1 is generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 U.S.C. sec.
921 et seq.). NFA weapons are also sometimes called class 3
weapons, because a class 3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA
weapons.


Quote:
NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (a.k.a.
silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
destructive devices and "any other weapons". Exactly what these
weapons are is defined in the law, as well as in court cases
interpreting the law.


Quote:
Any other weapons (AOW's) are a number of things; smooth bore
pistols
, any pistol with more than one grip, (but see below) gadget
type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and shoulder fired weapons with both
rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12" and 18", that must be
manually reloaded (see discussion below).


Quote:
These definitions are simplified, to see if a specific gun is a
title 1 or 2 firearm one needs to refer to the specific definition
under the statute(s), and possibly consult with the Technology
Branch of ATF. There is also case law on the issue of whether a
specific item falls into one of these categories. In addition, as
a general rule, a parts kit, i.e. all of the parts to assemble an
NFA firearm, whether a parts kit is specifically included in the
statute or not, is usually considered to be the same as the
assembled firearm.


So, if a Simunitions device is a firearm, AND a pistol, then it must be a title 2 (aka class 3) firearm, and the conversion kit is also a title 2 firearm. But is it a firearm and a pistol?

From the California Penal Code,

Quote:
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon
, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length
. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.


So, if the Simunitions device was designed to be used as a weapon, THEN yes it does expel a projectile by means of explosion and is therefore a firearm AND a pistol.

So the real underlying question is: was this device designed to be used as a weapon?

According to Simunition who designed it,

Quote:
Most realistic training system; safe; non-lethal and non-toxic ammunition; force-on-force and man-to-man live fire scenario training without the associated danger; convenience of training any place, any time; high-quality; reliable; unique with worldwide recognition; affordable; easy to use; total training system with kits, cartridges, protective equipment and training courses.


So, we now know that it was not designed to inflict injury. Therefore, once the Simunition kit has been installed, the device is no longer a pistol nor a firearm, and therefore it can no longer be categorized as a smooth bore pistol.

In addition:

* Simunitions training devices fire in the range of under 450 FPS, which is significantly less than many legal smooth-bore Airsoft pellet rifles (which are often found up to 600 FPS) which are designed for gaming, and legally available to minors without any license.

* Flare guns use combustion to launch a projectile and are smooth bore, yet they are not considered NFA weapons.

* Paintball guns which use non-explosive force to propel the projectile have comparable velocities, smooth bores, and are not considered firearms.

* BB guns and Nerf guns with smooth bores are not considered firearms
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 03:39 pm
Best I know, the firearm is defined by the receiver, with serial number. I once bought a conversion - .45 Gold Cup to .22. No paperwork. It was not a firearm.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 04:18 pm
I guess there was a lot of information there so let me re-word it because you don't seem to understand.

A class 3 license is required not only to buy but also to own NFA weapons (NFA weapons usually refer to fully automatic assault rifles, SMG's, grenade launchers, silencers, and machine guns used by law enforcement and military). These are guns which require a special permit (a class 3 license) to own. Among these NFA weapons are listed "smooth bore pistols".

Therefore, a class 3 license is required to purchase OR own OR construct a class 3 weapon. It also clearly states that a conversion kit to make a class 3 weapon should be considered a class 3 weapon itself.

So the question is, AFTER the barrel has been replaced so that it now fires simunition paintballs, is it now a class 3 NFA weapon?

It seems ridiculous to me that someone with the legal right to operate a real handgun would not be allowed to possess a non-deadly paintball gun, but that is the way the law seems to be interpreted right now...
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 07:14 pm
You're right, I didn't understand the question. Well, I've no knowledge in this area. If I did, I would share it.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 07:18 pm
Use it to rob a liquor/convenience store. The prosecutor and judge will provide up-to-date information on this topic.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 07:22 pm
Oh, it's clearly a firearm, Mr. Stillwater. Is it a class II? Probably could be argued that way, and that's what lawyers like to do.

Again, I don't know.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 07:26 pm
We could ask Charlton Heston. He's kinda knowledgable about these things.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 08:03 pm
Quote:
Use it to rob a liquor/convenience store. The prosecutor and judge will provide up-to-date information on this topic.


When threatening someone with a non-deadly weapon, the punishment is treated as if it were a deadly weapon...so it could be a squirt gun, and still be armed robbery.

Please refrain from future posting on this thread, this is a serious topic and you obviously do not have any pertinent information to share, and I do not appreciate your annoying and insulting attitude towards my perfectly valid legal dilemma.

Quote:
Oh, it's clearly a firearm, Mr. Stillwater. Is it a class II? Probably could be argued that way, and that's what lawyers like to do.


First of all, a firearm is title 1 or title 2. There is no class 2. We refer to title 2 as class 3 due to the license type or NFA (same thing).

However, as I think I stated pretty clearly originally, the question is ENTIRELY is it a firearm. As you can see by the definition of firearm from California Penal code, a firearm is classified as a WEAPON which expels a projectile by explosion...and Simunition is not designed to be a weapon, it is designed to be a TRAINING tool which is SAFE to shoot at other people who are wearing proper protective gear.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 08:45 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Quote:
.and Simunition is not designed to be a weapon, it is designed to be a TRAINING tool which is SAFE to shoot at other people who are wearing proper protective gear.


If that is what you are intending to do you had better consult a lawyer who can provide you with the appropriate legal definitions and guidance.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 10:39 pm
Quote:
If that is what you are intending to do you had better consult a lawyer who can provide you with the appropriate legal definitions and guidance.


Darn. I was hoping I'd get some free lawyer assistance in this room.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 11:02 pm
From Simunition's own website;

Quote:
Due to the very nature of our business, the sale and use of Simunition ® products and systems are restricted to recognised law-enforcement agencies, federal agencies, military forces, approved professional training and security facilities.


I would suppose that means yes, they are class 3, but don't quote me.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 08:59 am
Adrian,

I am trying to figure out if Simunitions is selling to LEO for their own legal protection, or if they are actually considered NFA under law and Simunitions is choosing not to sell to NFA licensed civilians for their own reasons, or if by LEO they ACTUALLY mean anyone with an NFA license (which is very different).

The other thing is that NFA weapons are not even restricted to LEO(law enforcement only), because any civilian with a class 3 license is able to own any kind of gun in the world including NFA weapons.

I think I'm just going to have to ask them!
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 06:40 pm
Quote:
However, as I think I stated pretty clearly originally, the question is ENTIRELY is it a firearm. As you can see by the definition of firearm from California Penal code, a firearm is classified as a WEAPON which expels a projectile by explosion...and Simunition is not designed to be a weapon, it is designed to be a TRAINING tool which is SAFE to shoot at other people who are wearing proper protective gear.



Forget the boys toys, whydoncha getta friggin' life!
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 07:29 pm
I already asked you politely to refrain from posting on this thread due to your immature attitude on the subject. Consider this the second time.
0 Replies
 
 

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