6
   

Did Jesus Really exist?

 
 
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2016 09:59 am
@High Strangeness,
Quote:
When Klaatu and ET arrived on earth the Establishment scaredy-cat fools started wetting themselves and reached for their guns, they might not know they were fools but WE know they are..


So then tell me... How is a fool to change their ways if no one bothers or thinks they are important enough to try to help them?

Is that what Jesus did? Was that His attitude towards those who disagreed with Him? Was that the attitude He taught to His disciples, who then passed it on to all those they ministered to?

High Strangeness
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2016 11:53 am
@onevoice,
Nothing wrong in trying to make fools see sense, but if they won't listen we shouldn't waste any more time on them-
Jesus said- "Do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 7:6)
"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words" (Proverbs 23:9)
"Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of fools." (Ecc 7:6)
"The Jews argued with him, so Paul said 'I'm clear of my responsibility' and left" (Acts 18:6-7)

onevoice
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 08:00 am
@High Strangeness,
Quote:
Nothing wrong in trying to make fools see sense, but if they won't listen we shouldn't waste any more time on them. Jesus said- "Do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 7:6)


Yes He did say that. Here's the problem that a lot of people seem to forget...

That's not ALL He said. He also said.. Directly before where you chose to start quoting...

Quote:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


And:

Quote:
Luke 6:
27 “But I say to YOU WHO HEAR: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.

35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 THEREFORE BE MERCIFUL, JUST AS YOUR FATHER ALSO IS MERCIFUL.

37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”


In rebuking the Pharisees He even still did it without condemnation:

Quote:
Matthew 15:
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” 12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”


If you will notice... He told Peter, "Let them alone."

Not:

"Look down on them as you go"

Not:

"Tell the world what bad Christian's they are"

Not:

"Cross the street to avoid the "likes" of them."

Not:

"Do not love them anymore."

A tree is known by its fruit... Remember?

Quote:
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? FOR OUT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Back to Proverbs:

Quote:
Proverbs 18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are deep waters;
The wellspring of wisdom is a flowing brook.


Deep waters are hard to navigate sometimes. Especially to those who only know how to doggie paddle. But a flowing Brook... Now that is what brings refreshment to weary souls.

Quote:
Provebs 18:15 The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge,
And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.


To acquire knowledge is to understand we don't know it all... and never will. And the ear of the wise listens for it above all else.

Quote:
Proverbs 17:27, 28 He who has knowledge spares his words, And a man of understanding is of a calm spirit.
28 Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.


Anyone can pick and choose bits and pieces of Scriptures to pull out and build a belief around... It is after all how the "church" has gotten itself into its current position. The only way the truth can be seen is when the right pieces are put in place with the pieces they were meant to connect with. It's like a puzzle, and there's only one picture that can be made from the pieces we have been given.

Only One.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 08:14 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
There are zero eyewitness accounts of Jesus, no contemporary writing mentioning him.

Do you actually 'write off' anything written that isn't contemporary?

Get real Edgar.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 08:22 am
@onevoice,
Quote:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Had to comment on this because it is so often misused.

It is often assumed this means that we are not to judge.
Read it carefully. It says to judge by the same standard that you want to be judged by.

We are expected to judge, but judge fairly.

"Know ye not that ye shall judge Angels?"

High Strangeness
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 12:05 pm
@onevoice,
said in rebuking me- "Anyone can pick and choose bits and pieces of Scriptures to pull out and build a belief around"
----------------------------------------------------

Firstly old chum, your post was a tad too long and might leave you open to accusations of longwindedness by some people, that's why I like to keep my own posts short and punchy..Wink-
"The more the words, the less the meaning,and how does that profit anyone?" (Ecc 6:11)

Secondly- if you're building a house, you choose the strongest bricks for the foundations. Some bible verses are stronger than others so they're the ones we should choose, rather than mix in lesser-important ones making us look wimpy, pol-correct and lukewarm-
God says -"So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:16)


onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 12:51 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
It is often assumed this means that we are not to judge.
Read it carefully. It says to judge by the same standard that you want to be judged by.

We are expected to judge, but judge fairly.

"Know ye not that ye shall judge Angels?"


I couldn't agree with you more. Smile I was merely addressing the judgement I have seen thus far from your highness.
0 Replies
 
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 01:27 pm
@High Strangeness,
Quote:
Firstly old chum, your post was a tad too long and might leave you open to accusations of longwindedness by some people, that's why I like to keep my own posts short and punchy..


I have been here a while. I am pretty sure most who have interacted with me are fully aware of what to expect from me. Either way, no one puts up much of a fuss anymore. Accusations are just that... accusations. People think em... people say em... People whisper em in dark places... The only effect it truly has on a person is the effect the person being accused allows it to have on them.

Short and punchy... Or neatly sliced with partial truths twisted to suit your needs?

Quote:
Secondly- if you're building a house, you choose the strongest bricks for the foundations. Some bible verses are stronger than others so they're the ones we should choose, rather than mix in lesser-important ones making us look wimpy, pol-correct and lukewarm-


It is interesting that you used building a house as an example. That just happens to be Jesus's final example in one other the scriptures we are talking about:

Quote:
Matthew 7
24 “Therefore whoever HEARS THESE SAYINGS of Mine, AND DOES THEM, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”


He said "These sayings"... implying ALL are important. ALL have their part. Those ones you dismiss so easily for the "more "important" ones"... as you see it... are actually speaking about our most important part.... our inward character. That side of us only God sees. Anyone can put on a Christian mask and spew out scriptures. The world isn't looking for what's already been done and is still being done today.

High Strangeness
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 05:18 pm
@onevoice,
said- "Short and punchy... Or neatly sliced with partial truths twisted to suit your needs?"
------------------------------------------------

Attaboy, you packed 3 sins into one short punchy sentence by judging me, slandering me, and false witnessing me..Smile
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 05:37 pm
@High Strangeness,
Quote:
Attaboy, you packed 3 sins into one short punchy sentence by judging me, slandering me, and false witnessing me..


Trust me... Your own words speak for themselves and really need no help from me at all. Wink

Whether you realize it... Or ever choose to realize it or not... You are hurting people. I don't believe it's intentional. Unfortunately, intent means nothing in the long run. I won't sit by and watch it happen.

I have watched too many others (including myself at one point) come dancing on in here with their high falooting "ideals" of "God's love" and how they are going to "lead everyone to salvation" with their version of "the truth"... All the while looking down their snotty running nose at everyone around them. I care about every single one of the folks here whether any one of them actually likes me or not, and I am not gonna let some cookie cutter Christian come floating on in here whacking people over the head with their pretentious ideals of God and His Love, when their words are clearly screaming they are just as lost as the ones they are "trying to save".

*Tips her hat and walks away*

You have a nice night now, your highness. Wink
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 05:47 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:


People wanted to be christians because the religions as peddled originally promised pie in the sky by and by when you die, in a world which was very hard for most people.


And now, for a brief intermission....

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 06:07 pm
@onevoice,
onevoice wrote:
I have watched too many others (including myself at one point) come dancing on in here with their high falooting "ideals" of "God's love" and how they are going to "lead everyone to salvation" with their version of "the truth"... All the while looking down their snotty running nose at everyone around them. I care about every single one of the folks here whether any one of them actually likes me or not, and I am not gonna let some cookie cutter Christian come floating on in here whacking people over the head with their pretentious ideals of God and His Love, when their words are clearly screaming they are just as lost as the ones they are "trying to save".


That bore repeating. So many of us, religious, irreligious or areligious, have no interest in "being saved."
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 06:17 pm
@Setanta,
As is your right sir.
0 Replies
 
High Strangeness
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 06:18 pm
@Setanta,
said- " So many of us, religious, irreligious or areligious, have no interest in "being saved."
---------------------------------------------------

You don't have to come to the party if you don't want..Smile
Jesus said- "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son...he told his servants- go out and invite to the banquet anyone you find.." (Matt 22:2)
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 07:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
There are zero eyewitness accounts of Jesus, no contemporary writing mentioning him.

Do you actually 'write off' anything written that isn't contemporary?

Get real Edgar.

It's about evidence, or in this case lack of it. Not one person ever saw him and then mentioned it in writing.
High Strangeness
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2016 07:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
said- "It's about evidence, or in this case lack of it. Not one person ever saw him and then mentioned it in writing."
-------------------------------------------------

Well who wrote the New Testament, Donald Duck?
And there were plenty of other books about Jesus that are not in the bible such as-
Apocalypse of Peter
Epistle of Barnabas
Infancy Gospel of James
Shepherd of Hermas
1st Clement
Gospel of Thomas
The Didache
Lost Epistle to the Corinthians
Third Letter to the Corinthians
Gospel of Mary Magdalene

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 10:38 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
It's about evidence, or in this case lack of it. Not one person ever saw him and then mentioned it in writing

Do you say that because the writings are old?
Or are you just saying the many manuscripts mentioning Jesus were fabricated lies?

Do you doubt that Socrates lived because there is no contemporary witness?

Say what you really mean Edgar.
glenmedved
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2016 10:16 pm
@anthony1312002,
Okay, this might be very, very, very difficult to put in your mind, but he did exist. He was.

He was.

Okay, so "he was."

Try to think this: the only man in history who could be hidden. Who is he to you? Someone that could be hidden, right?

There's probably something very beautiful in your mind that can be blocking that historical fact.

Yup, it's the bible itself.

Ignore the bible, it's a very sacred thing that can hold minds together, and in some rare occurrences, apart.

Now find something on a Wikipedia article? No.

Put a view in your mind, a complete view, that separates Him from that one holy text of ours.

Try to do that.

Did you?

Now where else can he be.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2016 05:04 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
It's about evidence, or in this case lack of it. Not one person ever saw him and then mentioned it in writing

Do you say that because the writings are old?
Or are you just saying the many manuscripts mentioning Jesus were fabricated lies?

Do you doubt that Socrates lived because there is no contemporary witness?

Say what you really mean Edgar.


What I wrote is the truth. Not one person wrote about a Jesus in the supposed person's lifetime. Not one eyewitness, not one book known to exist. Is that plain enough?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2016 08:19 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
What I wrote is the truth. Not one person wrote about a Jesus in the supposed person's lifetime. Not one eyewitness, not one book known to exist. Is that plain enough?

Just because the people who were with him wrote the documents 10 - 30 years after the events does not invalidate them. They were eye witnesses who lived with him. They were people who took the 'rules' about not bearing false witness and lying seriously. They did not have any mandate to 'write the bible' or document the events at the time. This was after all a very informal and small group. It is common for people write accounts of events long after they happen. Biographies and autobiographies are typically written at the end of a persons life for logical reasons. Another factor is that the witnesses were under threat of death for their beliefs.

If you wish to impugn their integrity or say they made the whole thing up you can but then you would have to apply that same doubt to every thing ever written if you are to take that approach.

Just because their writings were included in 'the bible' is not a reason to invalidate them.
 

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