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Is Kylo Ren a greater character than Darth Vader?

 
 
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 06:17 am
I think Kylo Ren is a better character than Vader (although I like what Lucas did with him in Revenge of the Sith); where do you stand?
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Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 968 • Replies: 12
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 06:38 am
@Thomas33,
I liked Darth's hamartia better than Ren's, and Ren's parentage was too contrived for me.

What aspects do you like?
Thomas33
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 07:20 am
@Lash,
I don't see Ren as a contrived character, but as a beautifully tragic juxtaposition to Return of the Jedi. The power of Kylo Ren is the idea of betrayal taken to its max (the legacy of Han Solo turned on its head).

Not just this, but Vader in the original trilogy is about ten years older than Kylo Ren, so it isn't as much something to see him commanding others, whereas with Ren (knowing his heritage) the assumed knowledge of the audience gives the character more unseemliness in terms of having power over others (of course, Vader was only in his early twenties when giving orders, but this is relative to Ren being symmetry to Vader because of the costume).

Ren mirrors Vader in The Force Awakens, yet is the total opposite: he isn't a machine, is doing the same things as his grandfather despite being much younger (again, this is relative to audience introduction to the character), and unlike Vader he is allowed to be exposed in the same movie. In Vader's case multiple movies were needed to give dimension to the character.

Why do you feel Ren is contrived?

Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 07:46 am
@Thomas33,
Take a closer look at what I said was contrived. Aside from that, I enjoyed your comments. Waiting to see if another fan joins the conversation.

Ren may have been vastly short-changed, as you allude, due to Ren's story being burped out on us while Vader's unfolded in spectacular fashion across decades.
Thomas33
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 08:47 am
@Lash,
I think that's the strength - the fact that Kylo Ren's story wasn't actually shown to us, seeing Snoke twist his mind. It makes the horror of it more powerful - or would you disagree?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 09:32 am
@Thomas33,
I thought they spewed too much narrative on us rather than showing. I felt this installment rested too heavily on the original principals showing up.

The story borrowed feloniously heavily from the original story. I do like the fatal flaw of Ren, but him turning to the dark side considering his parents...and uncle... And the acting of Ford and Fisher around that fact to me was deplorable. The director asked a hell of a lot more from us than he did the writers or actors. Imo.
Thomas33
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 12:42 pm
@Lash,
I respect your opinion. Though I suppose that's the horror of Kylo Ren - he became who he is despite the family he had (unlike Vader).
I will disagree about TFA relying on the returning cast; actually, I think all the new actors were better than the original actors (especially Adam Driver).

I think what can be taken from TFA is the power of the contrast; the ending of Return of the Jedi completely contradicts TFA, which is the point (subversion).
I personally think the scenes between Rey and Kylo Ren are powerful; when Ren carries Rey off of Takodana, Han Solo watching, the power for me is the idea of Kylo Ren acting ahead of his age - I could be wrong to have that perception.


Overall, the great thing about Kylo Ren is that he is actually the true Darth Vader: Darth Vader wasn't introduced as a tragic character, but became one in time, whereas with Kylo Ren the same movie revealed his true identity, and because his family had long since been introduced to the audience, it made the knowledge of his betrayal all the more horrific.

Essentially, Kylo Ren could perhaps be interpreted as the true idea of a Darth Vader.
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jul, 2016 02:32 pm
@Thomas33,
I stopped reading to emphatically agree with your appreciation of Adam Driver.

(gives a long moment to consider Adam Driver)

Yes, please.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2016 01:36 pm
@Lash,
You two hould seriously consider obtaining a life.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2016 01:41 pm
@farmerman,
Ok. I promise to obtain a facsimile of a life if you tell me you either
1. Have felt no interest in the Star Wars sequel bringing back all the principals from that late 1970s blockbuster, or
2. You've never been pulled in to a nutty degree to any TV show or movie.


We're on the honor system, farmer.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2016 02:22 pm
@Lash,
NO, I aw the first two Star Wars and actuaqlly liked the Mel Brooks version better, where John Candy plays chewtabacca and they drive this Winnebago through Space.

My last "Must see" was Sopranos, Fargo (the series) qand "Justified"
I never got into Breaking Bad and Game of thrones .

Even Jurassic Park 2.3 4, compared to the first one, sucked There are a very few UK myteries tht I like but most of them substitute meningless conversation for action. (Like MidSomer Murders) while it ws ok, it got so formulaic that you could pick out how many bodies would show up on any pqrticular pisode.

I like Miss Fisher cuse she was kinda hot and smart.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2016 04:02 pm
@farmerman,
Please give Breaking Bad and GAME OF THRONES another try...and the Aussie version of Rake.

I don't know what to say about you legitimately liking Spaceballs.

I'm at a loss.

And off to get a life...
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2016 04:36 pm
I tried to watch Spaceballs two or three times. Just couldn't do it.
0 Replies
 
 

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