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Is a moving charge equivalent to wire with a DC current?

 
 
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2016 10:38 pm
As far as I knew about the tutorials and books on the basic physics, a moving charge would be applied with a constant force in a magnetic field(Biot-Savart Law), while a long wire with a DC current would behave the same as the moving charge(The Ampere's Rule).

Ok, I get to it, the two formula were B*I*L and B*Q*v, at the time with IL = Qv, the forces are equivalent.

Is that all agree on this? I stop here by a little while. This is phase 1, if there is any questions, please refer to this phase.

Let's continue.
Since the two are the same, we may replace the one in system with another without altering the result. Is that ok?
However, how to make charges always moving in the same speed and same direction is hard, we here assumes a system that carries charge and are fixed in rail, so that the speed and direction can be therefore controlled.

We knew that the magnetic effect between 2 long wires with dc flow in the same direction would bring them together. Now let's replace one of the line with equivalent moving charge, it should apply right?
And let's replace the other one with the moving charge, it should also be the same right?
And now we draw a ridiculous conclusion that 2 moving charge would attract each other(We knew it was impossible since they have no diffence in relative movement, they can only be expeling each other)

Now let me stop here for a while, This is phase 2, I want to rest for a while, wait for others to reply.

I posted this on several domestic and foreign forums, and got no reply at all, I'm sure I can get some help here, as long as you love nature and truth.
I'm expecting replies and questions, those who doubts my intermediate conclusions with reasons are quite welcome:=>
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Heermosi
 
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Reply Wed 6 Jul, 2016 12:45 am
There is also a Chinese versioned full detail, however, I don't want to release it. If any one want skip current stage to get to the kernel of the problem, then contact me. I'll translate them into english.
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Heermosi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jul, 2016 02:54 am
Ok, although it was a pity that I cannot edit the original post to add new components to it. I'll list the rest of the problem here, the kernel of the problem.

Before we start, we must not taken special relativity into consideration----don't ask me why, because the following discussion does not really need its participation, regardless of it was truth or not.



Ok, let's start.
We've got a contradictional result of 2 flying system in parallel with same amount of charge would attract each other rather than repelling each other.

We may do experiments, or not. WE KNEW IT WAS WRONG, because we don't know if we ourselves are flying or not. Thus we cannot determine its behaviour in our system, it was against the relativity. ---- well the relativity again, not the einstein's speical one which links time space. It was only the raw, original relativity.
If you don't agree on the relativity, then you may argue later on, itwas quite welcome.



Let's continue.
We knew it was wrong, but how? And why? We are taught of the source which caused the magnetic effect was the current or moving charges and the wires with certain DC current can be replaced by an equivalent moving charges in magnetic effects.
This caused my suspection of what we are taught of. There must be something not true, some one is trying to blinding the readers, if they did not think in depth.

The theroitical explaination of the nature of equvalence is that the moving charge is equivalent to charge moving in a DC current. However I must say it was also a fake one. This telling is lying.

If the magnetic effect was caused by the moving charges in the wire(with DC current), then we could also get a similar ridiculous conculsion.

Since the charges are moving of almost the same speed in wires(given the same environmental state). We cannot draw a trustworth conclusion that they would attract each other when the current are flowing in the same direction.

The basis of the magnetic effect 'SEEMS' collapsed. Remember what I told you, don't introduce special relativity. There is nothing to do with it.



Well, then here I shall give out my thinkings and conclusions in short words.

1. We all know that the magnetic effect is caused by the moving of electic fields(aya, I do not quite accept it, but in order to state my point of view, I'll use words in generic), if we decompose the force into basic components, they must be of the form like F = g*Qa*Qb*(Vab)^2, it means that it must be relative to square of relative speed while relative to the moving charge amount.

2. From the system, we can also figure out the difference between moving charge and wires with DC flow, the DC flow did not make any extra charges in total, they just moving but keep themselves neutral.

3. in fact, in the system consists of 2 wires with DC current there were not only the moving charges, those not moving, are also part of the effect.
When the current flowing in same direction, there are 2 positive-negative pairs of relative movings,
When the current flowing in the different direction, there are 3 pairs of relative moving, 2 is positive-negative relative moving, and the rest one is negative-negative relative moving.

4. refered in above if we want to derive a formula for these effect they must be some thing like this, for each pair:
F = g*Q1*Q2*v^2
When Q1 and Q2 are certain, the force is and should only be realtive to their relative move speed.

5. For current of same direction, the force is
F = -g*Q1*Q2*v^2 + -g*Q1*Q2*v^2 = -2g*Q1*Q2*v^2
For current of different direction, the force is
F = -g*Q1*Q2*v^2 + -g*Q1*Q2*v^2 + 2g*Q1*Q2*(2v)^2= 2g*Q1*Q2*v^2
That's why the wires would taking forces of different direction but of the same amount.

Any one want to doubt this step, are strongly recommended to post your opinion. I do not care to be corrected, but I do care that no one can understand what I wrote.


Let's get to final one, the kernel of the problem.
Things seems to be perfectly solved, regardless of its nature, we get the formula. Every thing seems fine.
Is that all? No, not at all.

Since we broke the old explainations of the basis of magnetic effect and equivalence of a moving change and a wire with DC current, we must turn back and investigate is it still the same for replacing a wire with a moving thing with charges?

Ok derive from the above formula:
1. Assuming the moving charge and the carrier are of the same sign, moving in the same direction. Then we got:
F = g*Qc*Qw*(Vc - Vw) ^2+ -g*Qc*Qw*Vc^2
= g*Qc*Qw*(-2Vc*Vw + Vw^2)

Here Vw is the equivalent speed of carriers moving. Qw is the equivalent amount of charge the wire takes.
We seems to get some trouble:
1. the ideal formula must be F = -2*g*Qc*Qw*Vc*Vw, however there is some extra things like g*Qc*Qw*Vw^2
2. for they moving in opposite directions, we may also get one annoying extra things.

Then although we can explain it in general, however, the small amount is never refered to in formal turtorials or books. Is that my assumption wrong?

And for the very first question: replace the 2 wires with 2 moving charges what's the difference?
We've got the trouble 3:
The force we got is F = g*Q1*Q2*(Vr)^2
*It was comparablely less than the effect between wires or the effect between wire and moving charge. Dropped by a cofactor of 1/2. It was quite strange.

We can get interesting reading from above such 'conclusions':
1. A static charge would also be applied a force of magnatic effect, when near a wire with dc current. Although it was very weak.
(could it be errornously taken as magnetic torque of electrons?
:=) I really don't think so, it must be some thing not yet detected.
Or some one intended to hide it from public.)
2. Currents of different speed and of same amplitude are causing different magnetic effects. The faster the moving, the stronger the magnetic effect. It might be relative to temperature of the material.


Thank you for reading this, Please don't just watch! Post anything so that I can get some feed back!
If you were man and have any thinkings you should go straight! It's brave and of the manner a man should have learnt about!
Heermosi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2016 11:45 pm
@Heermosi,
I examined the details of the formula on single charge's effect on another one.
It was exactly the same as the former derivation predicts.
That means the current measurement based on coils are bringing errors into the results at a very small value.
I don't quite understand if it was important or not, but the truth must be revealed and the tutorials must be corrected.
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