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German public pool bans the burqini, what do you think?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 05:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That is a confounding statistic! How do you account for the disparity??
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 06:04 am
@Lash,
I have no idea. (And I had no idea that 43% of the killed persons were male in Germany.)
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 06:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, now I have something interesting to research. I didn't even know males were subject to honor killings.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 06:44 am
@Lash,
Where you are wrong, Lash, is this

Muslim women are human beings. Muslim women like being Muslim women, the same way that Catholic women like being Catholic Women, and Hispanic women like being Hispanic women.

Your view of Muslim women is warped. You don't seem to be able to accept the fact that they are adults, they are intelligent and they are completely able to make their own decisions in a free democratic society.

Yes... you can find former Catholic women who hate the Catholic church, and former openly homosexual people who hate homosexuality. And you can find former Muslims who hate Islam and former Christians who hate Christianity. None of this proves anything.

For a Muslim woman who chooses to express her ethnic identity by wearing a burqini.... you have no right to tell her what to do.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 06:57 am
@maxdancona,
There are two competing worldviews, here.

One is that Muslim women are free persons who can make free choices.

The other is that Muslim women are oppressed and controlled by their religious communities.


Just from my own personal experience, Muslim women in the US tend to fall into the first category. I would assume any woman able and willing to attend a public swimming pool is likely to fall into the first category as well.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 07:11 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
I would assume any woman able and willing to attend a public swimming pool is likely to fall into the first category as well.
There are about 20 swimming within 30 minutes drive from that pool.

This Muslim woman actually didn't want to do some swimming but attended the (free) course "Aqua Aerobic", which is done during the women-only day in that pool.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:00 am
@maxdancona,
There is a valid point embedded in your hyperbole. Of course I know they're women. But you're right. I do believe that they are in a trap - some of them are directly aware of it, and some have been conditioned to accept the oppressive misogynistic tenets.

You are right that I do look at what life is like in that religious community, how women and girls are conditioned to accept that their bodies, their beautiful hair, are responsible for the sexual desire it causes in men. Women and girls are satan's agents when a man wants his way with them. Even if the girl does hide herself in shame throughout her life, some man may still want her. He can brutalize her with no repercussions because it is known that women are always guilty for taunting men with their shapes, their dark eyes, that sinful wisp of hair that broke free from the veil, and beckoned him in the sunlight.

She's raped and murdered for it.

I'm aware that American women who may not live in these punitive communities choose Islam. I'd be interested to hear how they explain to you why they cover themselves.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:08 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I'd be interested to hear how they explain to you why they cover themselves.

Why do you wear clothes? What makes you choose the clothes you wear? Do you wear a shirt? Why? There are places in the world where women don't wear shirts. If you wear one, is it because you choose to cover yourself up, or is it because you're oppressed?

Lash
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:17 am
@DrewDad,
I wear what I like. I don't go topless at the pool because it's illegal, so I do have a few legal restrictions between what I'd like and what I'm free to do.

I don't think my legal restrictions against public nudity equate with public enforcement, sometimes to the death, of scrupulously covering your hair and your body because it's inherently evil.

I don't think you would try to equate the two either. Think of these women.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:55 am
@Lash,
You have a very negative view of Muslim women and of Islam in general. I don't believe it is warranted.

This is about Muslim women who choose on their own to cover themselves based on their own cultural practices or faith. We all agree that no one should be forced to cover themselves.... but that is not what we are talking about. These women deserve your respect, not as "controlled girls" who are unable to make decisions for themselves, but as adult women who can choose on their own... even if they don't believe what you believe.

If you want to get a new perspective, start listening to the voices of Muslim women (who choose to be Muslim) and reading what they like. Malala is a good place to start, if you would like... I will find some more reading materials for you. I have the benefit of being in a diverse community with a very eclectic group of friends, I realize that not everyone has this benefit.

If you believe Muslim women ar "trapped" and "conditioned" and "unaware", it's no wonder that you have trouble hearing their voices, or accepting their ability to make decisions for themselves; in this case to choose to wear a burqini.

I believe you are completely wrong about Muslim women.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 11:56 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I wear what I like.
Would you go with swimwear to a pool when it's nudity only? (there are two outdoor pools and one indoor pool between 3 and 7 miles away from that said pool only for nudity bathing.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:00 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is about Muslim women who choose on their own to cover themselves based on their own cultural practices or faith. We all agree that no one should be forced to cover themselves.... but that is not what we are talking about.
So the original title isn't the topic anymore, it's more general now?

Do you know that e.g. in France no trunks, Bermuda shorts, T-shirts or anything that is not strictly meant for swimming are allowed?

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hfp7ae.jpg
A vending machine at the public pool in Auxerre, France, dispenses swimsuits if you've forgotten yours or not the correct ones.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I thought the topic was "should someone be forced to uncover themselves". If someone wants to come to the pool dressed in modest swimwear, why would the pool ban them? If this person sat there berating other swimmers, I could see banning the person, but I don't get banning someone for dressing modestly. After all, the burqini is expressly designed for swimming.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
why are all those rules necessary?

if people aren't a hazard to each other, I think they should be left to their own devices in terms of wardrobe (in pools and elsewhere)

our local pools really only have health/safety rules - no open sores, no spitting in the water, no running on the pool deck - and one re kids in some facilities- children over 7 have to change in same-gender areas (this only applies in some buildings - and gender is determined by the family/child)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
http://i66.tinypic.com/6h1dg2.jpg
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
needless is needless regardless of language or location


(edited for politeness)
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:18 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Mayor Kiechle further said that because the pool is financed publicly for all citizens, it would not make sense to make special arrangements for individual religions that may adversely affect the general public.


To me the issue is that making this religious accommodation does not "adversely affect the general public". It seems like the Mayor is suggesting that it does. I don't see how.

I'm also a bit confused on German swimwear. Here, men often wear swimwear that looks like shorts but are designed for swimming. Is that not the case in Germany?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:18 pm
@ehBeth,
You certainly are correct.


Usually, there's not more than just some local trouble about it - though, in France, they really look that these laws are enforced.

But a few schools (actually three) here in Germany wanted to get a tiny dress code for pupils: that was an outcry!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:20 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
I'm also a bit confused on German swimwear. Here, men often wear swimwear that looks like shorts but are designed for swimming. Is that not the case in Germany?
Of course you get them here, but they are rarely used for swimming. (And might not be allowed in some pools, too - since that's regulated locally, I have no idea.)
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm curious as to why shorts aren't not used for swimming in Germany. Is there an objective reason for requiring swimtrunks, or is it a cultural preference?
 

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