Time: was it invented or discovered?

Now you're getting into attempted definition of Self...which as an embodiment of a self you may be inequipped to do? Also, JLNobody(like the name, a suprising reference in a place like this) doesn't want to, so come on you two.

Dying is perhaps the greatest hindrance to living.

Dropping a cup of coffee is perhaps the greatest hindrance to keeping ahold of it.

Eating is perhaps the greatest hindrance to...not...eating.

(P.S. I've been away from this thread for a while, which is why I never replyed to the question posed to me; (more or less) How is Shroedinger's Cat "stupid"? My response is thus: As an avid conversationalist/philosophizer(a new word?), I would never leave a statement like that alone, or even make it with forethought. However, while recently viewing this forum for the first time I perceived it to be almost bogged-down by an overly dry, scholarly tone. So, I've decieded to keep my posts somewhat casual, while trying to avoid coming across as "stupid", as a breath of unwelcome/vaugely comedic air. Wait...that came out wrong...)

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I've always been fond of 'leggo my ego' as a catchphrase and life philosophy. That's why I wear the clown suit.

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Time in a Bottle (J. Croce)

If I could save time in a bottle
The first thing that I'd like to do
Is to save every day
Till Eternity passes away
Just to spend them with you

If I could make days last forever
If words could make wishes come true
I'd save every day like a treasure and then,
Again, I would spend them with you

But there never seems to be enough time
To do the things you want to do
Once you find them
I've looked around enough to know
That you're the one I want to go
Through time with

If I had a box just for wishes
And dreams that had never come true
The box would be empty
Except for the memory
Of how they were answered by you

But there never seems to be enough time
To do the things you want to do
Once you find them
I've looked around enough to know
That you're the one I want to go
Through time with

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The question was whether time was invented or discovered. The discussion all around philosophy and existentialism is most interesting, but I don't think it answers the question. The other discussion with respect to the elasticity, or relativity of time, also ignores the question originally posed.

I argue that time was discovered by humans. Then humans began to attempt to define and measure it, much like trying to define and measure flowing water. Big difference is that time only flows, and seemingly in only one direction at that, water can be captured and held in a container. But time has existed at least since the beginning of the universe, and I have no reason to believe that it did not exist before the universe.

Initial measurements of the continuim of time were very gross, or rough if you prefer. Days and nights make the first initial reasonable measurement. My daughter, as a baby, defined time as sleeps, meaning sleeping through a night. Then larger units of measure were made with reasonable accuracy, based on the phases of the moon, and the location of the sun in the sky. The latter was very important to predict when animals would move and when various fruits, nuts, etc. would be available for gathering based on the climate changes associated with the position of the sun in the sky.

Only much later were attempts to measure time made using various mechanical means, such as water wheels, burning candles, and sand falling through a narrow orifice.

Still more thousands of years were required before pendulums were harnessed. And a couple of hundred years more were required to harness an oscillating wheel driven by a spring. The later invention leading to the first pocket and wrist watches, but oh so much more importantly the ability to fix one's position in longitude on the seas where trade is so important.

Further advances have parsed the flow of time down to smaller and smaller discernable units, but it is no more a measure than the absolute measure of the minimum slice, or amount, of time that exists. Time is continious, like the flowing water I mentioned above.

Kelly

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Time appears continous to our preceptions and most common science (outside of Loop Quantum Gravity theories where time looks digital), but there is no definitive proof about time being quantised or continous that I have heard of yet!

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"...and I have no reason to believe that it did not exist before the universe."

Kelly, as I recall, Chronos was the oldest of the Greek gods.

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If our planet was to blow up in an hour and there was nobody left to experience time, time would still pass. What we equate to a second or a minute or a day will still pass whether our planet is here to rotate and revolve or not. We can measure time and interpret time but time is infinite. There was no first second of time, there will be no last second of time, and there is no smallest unit of time.

There may be a beginning of relative time to the age of our universe but even if the entire construct of time as we can perceive it and our relative space time continuum began with our big bang there had to be time prior to the big bang. The point singularity many feel started the ball rolling can only provide the continuum of time that is relative to us but must have existed inside a larger pocket of space-time that was relative to itself.

Time for many of us is like money to some of us. No matter how much time we get or will get, it never seems to be enough.

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KellyS wrote:

The question was whether time was invented or discovered. The discussion all around philosophy and existentialism is most interesting, but I don't think it answers the question. The other discussion with respect to the elasticity, or relativity of time, also ignores the question originally posed............Kelly

the 'actual' nature of 'time' is, just now being 'discovered'; thus was not invented; but that is misleading, as it is becoming apparent that time is not an entity, but the scaling of the relationships between objects, and events in the universe - micro, and macro.

time is like a matrix, or infinite grid system on which, all the universe 'happens', and by which, each 'event' can be placed in relation to any other.

[you cannot invent, or discover anything that in and of itself, does not exist!]

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time exists, but how?
Time is not an illusion. Time is a dimension, and explained to be the 4th dimension. I think i dont have to explain all 3 dimensions:)
(1st : a dot 2nd : a line or a square 3rd : a cube )
Think of a photo taken, it is a 2D picture of a real 3D object. But when you take time and add it to the photo, it becomes a movie. Dont think of seconds, minutes or months. These are just the masks people had put to meet on time :wink: or to sleep on time.. Just think of a continues dimension. I think this is what we call time..

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JLNobody wrote:

Time is not a concept that is problematical for me (not, for example, as problematical as "being" or "self"). But I'm sure if I were condemned to prison time would become the central concept of my life.

has this been mentioned...

there's two ways to view time

1. Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
This is the idea that an event in time is fixed to a specific referential point.Time is therefore objective. An event happened then and nothing can change that.

But the problem here is that time is supposed to be the measurement of change. A series of isolated infinite events is no measure of change. Merely a long list of things happening, whats more is there is no causal links between events.

2. Yesterday, today and tommorrow.
This perspective allows for time as a measure of change. The permanent flux of the present, progressing from the future, is currently now, and will be the past. However as this is subject to a current position in time, we have no point of reference, and therefore can not remove ourselves from time to see what it is objectively.

Therefore boys and girls, time, can not really exist. Saying that, I'm in a bit of rush, so catch you later.

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Do you doubt, Thomas, that time is the MEDIUM of change? I do not see a discreet FUTURE becoming--at some definite point, as if passing through a door--a discreet PRESENT which then becomes a discreet PAST. I only see change occuring and I call that time, however it is measured.

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the Reverend wrote:

Summation: There is an absolute Time evident in activity/events, and there is a Time that exists only in watches, clocks, and the human mind.

I just want to point out that watches and clocks work because of "activity/events" that constantly repeat, like a turning gear.

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Wonderfully sophisticated points, both.

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Quote:

Time and the Human brain

Brain Areas Critical To Human Time Sense Identified
Timing is everything. It comes into play when making split second decisions, such as knowing when to stop at a red light, catch a ball or modulate rhythm when playing the piano.

Now researchers at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee and Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Albuquerque have identified areas in the brain responsible for perceiving the passage of time in order to carry out critical everyday functions.

Their study is the first to demonstrate that the basal ganglia located deep within the base of the brain, and the parietal lobe located on the surface of the right side of the brain, are critical areas for this time-keeping system.

Their results are published in the current issue of Nature Neuroscience. Importantly, the study calls into question a long-standing and widely held belief in the scientific community that the cerebellum is the critical structure involved in time perception.

"We are excited that our findings can also have application to better understand some neurological disorders," says Stephen M. Rao, Ph.D., professor of neurology at the Medical College and principal investigator. "By identifying the area in the brain responsible for governing our sense of time, scientists can now study defective time perception, which has been observed in patients with Parkinson's disease and Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), two maladies commonly thought to have abnormal function within the basal ganglia."

Making accurate decisions regarding the duration of brief intervals of time from 300 milliseconds to 10 seconds is critical to most aspects of human behavior. Contemporary theories of short interval timing assume the existence of a timekeeper system within the brain, yet identifying these brain systems has been elusive and controversial.

Using a novel functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) technique that tracks second-by-second changes in brain activity, investigators identified regions within the brain that are critical for this timekeeping system.

Seventeen healthy, young men and women volunteers were imaged while being asked to perceive the duration of time between the presentations of two consecutive tones. One second later, two more tones were presented and subjects were asked to make a judgment as to whether the duration between the tones was shorter or longer than the first two tones.

To make sure that the brain systems associated with time perception were clearly identified, two control tasks were given which involved listening to tones or estimating their pitch, but not making judgments about their duration.

Using this fast imaging technique, the investigators were able to isolate only those areas of the brain activated during presentation of the first two tones -- when subjects are only perceiving and attending to time. Their results conclusively demonstrated that timekeeping functions are governed by the basal ganglia and the right parietal cortex.

Investigators have long suspected, based on indirect evidence, that the basal ganglia might be involved in time perception. The basal ganglia have nerve cells that primarily contain the neurotransmitter, dopamine.

Patients with Parkinson's disease have an abnormal reduction in dopamine within the basal ganglia and commonly experience problems with time perception. These difficulties partially improve when patients are administered a drug that increases dopamine levels in the brain.

Defective time perception has also been observed in patients with Huntington's disease and Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), two disorders commonly thought to have abnormal function within the basal ganglia. Animal studies have also demonstrated the importance of dopamine in timekeeping.

Medical College researchers at Froedtert Hospital, a major teaching affiliate of the Medical College, are currently using this new neuroimaging procedure to better understand how the brain enables dopamine replacement drugs and methylphenidate (Ritalin) to normalize time perception in individuals with Parkinson's disease and ADHD, respectively.

An additional study, in collaboration with investigators at the University of Iowa, will examine time perception in the early stages of Huntington's disease, prior to the development of the characteristic movement disorder.

The critical role of the parietal lobes in timekeeping was first suggested by coauthor Deborah L. Harrington, Ph.D., research scientist, Veterans Affairs Medical Center and associate research professor of neurology and psychology, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM. She and her colleagues reported that stroke patients with damage to the parietal cortex on the right but not the left side of the brain experienced impaired time perception.

Patients for the study have been drawn from Froedtert Hospital and the VA Medical Center in Milwaukee. Additionally, the researchers are studying adult ADHD patients who have been seen since childhood at the Medical College.

Coauthor of the study with Drs. Rao and Harrington is Andrew R. Mayer, M.S., graduate student, department of neurology, Medical College of Wisconsin.

The study was supported by grants from the National Institute of Mental Health and the W.M. Keck Foundation to the Medical College, and the Department of Veterans Affairs and National Foundation for Functional Brain Imaging to the Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Albuquerque. - By Toranj Marphetia

Contact: Toranj Marphetia for more information.

Last Edited: July 25, 2004

©1998-2004 Jacob L. Driesen, Ph.D.

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Otis wrote:

I just want to point out that watches and clocks work because of "activity/events" that constantly repeat, like a turning gear.

Nicely put, Otis.

Although; the operation of the mechanisms in clocks and watches is a perfect example of the "activity/events" mentioned in the first portion of my point, the function of watches and clocks (that of measuring Time using numbers and rotating sticks for the organizational purposes of people) is really what I meant to address in the second portion.

Thanks for pointing that out! Such a perspective is indicative of the potential length of any debate...

Yeah, "length" is what we're talking about. HA HA.

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Time in an abstract to observational method is a measure that exists in the minds of many, but to say it was invented seems plausible to me if you think that man can create universal laws. Do you think that man can create universal laws? The first analogy that comes to mind is gravity, another universal law of the physical world did man create the
phenomena or measure it?

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If we remember what happened yesterday, it doesn't need to be discovered.

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Yes CI but..... if you could find yesterday before it became tomorrow then I wouldn't have to repeat what I just said!

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Gels, Watcha trying to do? Confuse me? LOL Be gentle on this old man.

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doneitbefore wrote:

Time in an abstract to observational method is a measure that exists in the minds of many, but to say it was invented seems plausible to me if you think that man can create universal laws. Do you think that man can create universal laws? The first analogy that comes to mind is gravity, another universal law of the physical world did man create the
phenomena or measure it?

Gravity would exist whether or not there was a "mind" to percieve it. Time, however, may be a seperate thing from change and, if it is, may exist only as a construct of humanity used as a tool to explain change. Change may occur without the need for time, but humans may be incapable of speaking of change without reference to how long it took.

Referring to your analogy the phenomena I speak of is change. One of its measures is time.

Distance would exist with out humans to conceive of it and we invented miles, feet and inches to quantify it. Change would exist without human minds to conceive of it and we invented Time (and its components: hours, years, etc.) to measure it.

Time and inches are human constructs. Or what?

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Time: was it invented or discovered?

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