Elimination of Sleep.

But were our bodies built to be on the go all the time! We take time to do a variety of things - eat, exercise, work, play, etc. Isn't relaxing a part of winding down the energies that the body has used up doing these other activities and giving us time for replenishment? Wouldn't a continuous momentum uninterrupted by sleep put additional stress on our minds and bodies? We already put so much pressure on ourselves as it is to be successful, etc., do we really want to take away another relief against that pressure ... namely vegging out which, for some people, will only ever happen if they sleep!

The primary philosophical issue is whether elimination of sleep would be desireable or beneficial assuming "no side effects". The concept of "stress" is to some extent dependent on its recreational antidotes, only one of which is sleep.

A secondary philosophical issue concerns the concept of "levels of consciousness". Gurdjieff, for example, wrote that the ordinary waking state is little better than sleep-walking. "Man wrongly assumes he is in control, but in fact, everything just happens". Perhaps the proposed drug, if taken during "normal wakefulness" could boost us to some level of "higher consciousness".

I want to
I want to
I want to take you higher ! ! !
Baby, baby, baby
Light my fire . . .

I would imagine the consequence of no sleep time would result in longer working hours ... pity.

I would have liked to think it would be used for personal interests/family/leisure time but I would anticipate this would not be the case.

Fresco

I had to go back and read the article again----the drug you are talking about is a natural neurotransmitter that already exists in the brain but is greatly diminished in narcoleptics. What makes you think it would alter the lives of normal people---do you think that more is better?

I have great respect for your intellect and Gurdjieff was a brilliant philosopher but I can see nothing but a dead end here. Lets try another subject.

I suspect that the idea of going 24/7 would appeal to you, but only because you would be afraid of missing something for your large intellect to "chew" on but why try to "fix" something that "ain't broke"----the magnificent human brain.(except in those cases like narcoleptics)

Perception, I was thinking the same thing. The drug seems to keep something from happening (sleep) rather than make something happen (alertness).

Yes--apparently this neurotransmitter(orexen) is sythesized in the hypothalamus and is controlled by the bodies time clock which is apparently also in the hypothalamus(but no one knows). At any rate when the body says it's time to go to sleep the hypothalamus cuts off the supply of orexen to the cortex(where most of the neurons are located that do our thinking). When the orexen is cut off we go to sleep.

Kinda familiar, as, when the wife cuts off the woopee, the men go to the bar?

Hey that brings up another question----when the orexen is cut off we go to sleep--- BUT----those same neurons don't go to sleep they speed up trying to consolidate what happened during the day.

What it must do is cut off the sensory information being fed to the cortex. This could be a revalation.

Okay, irrespective of mystical considerations of "higher consciousness" we would all agree that our level of alertness or vigilance changes throughout wakefulness. Now assuming this vigilance level could be artificially controlled it could mean that problems with shift work, jet lag and educational time tabling etc could be minimised. In fact depending on economic factors all current periodicities of "the hive" could become arbitraryor negotiable.

And from an ethical point of view, in what way would altering our mental alertness be any different from altering our physical attributes by plastic surgery or steroids or viagra ? Or is it any different to seeking memory enhancing agents as our life expectancy increases ?

Jespah,

Just now read this post, but regarding your story...
First of, let me state that I don't buy this, but there are of course conspirational theories worldwide where governments put chemicals in the water etc. to keep the population docile/imbecile/infertile/ whatever else you can come up with -ile.
But even if the central theme of the story wouldn't exactly be original, I bet it'll be fun to read!

Fresco

OK---You bring out some great points about our general state of alertness during wakefullness. If we could be really alert all during our waking hours surely the brain could absorb more stimuli out of which we gain knowledge. It is reported that we use only one percent of our potential brain power.

I'm trying to find out more about orexin---will let you know what I find if anything.

Fresco
OK---let's forget about the physiological aspects of this discovery and concentrate on the truly useful sociological implications. As long as you forget about any attempt to eliminate the need for sleep which I believe is impossible because the brain needs a rest from the constant stream of sensory information in order to consolidate the information just received, and just concentrate on factors such as jet lag, periods of drowsiness, shift work, etc., then we have room for huge contributions. We now can talk about the bodies biological clock which causes jet lag---I think it is entirely possible to alter this without any consequence or side effect. It is evident that every person is impacted differently from jet lag and it is probably caused by a variation in the balance of orexin in each person's body. It would be a similar situation regarding changing shifts and sleeping at different times each day----changing the supply of orexin could negate the stress associated with not being able to sleep in a new cycle. In both the above situations however I can find the possibility for abuse such as pilots, diplomats and executives who fly long international flights on a routine basis. The brain and the body might rebel from constant alteration of the biological time clock. There are a whole string of possible body functions that would require examination and testing.

At this time I can see no ethical considerations other than the possibility for some unforseen abuse----just as you say it should fall into the same category as Viagra or muscle building enhancers.

perception, You have it backwards. The reason we have a "biological clock" is based on our change in day light. If we had 24 hours of day light, we wouldn't have a "biological clock," because plants and animals acclimate to the environment, and not the other way around. c.i.

I do not think that scientists have enough information to claim that deprivation of sleep has no side effects at all. To be completely sure that such a drug does not have undesirable effects on both physical and mental health in close or distant future, decades-lasting follow-up is needed.
Undesired social side effect of its usage may cause so drastic increase of labor productivity that overproduction crisis may be its result.

C.I.

I believe the issue here is not what the biological time clock is tied to but whether or not we could alter the SLEEP cycle and if that would be desireable.

Stesseid

You're absolutely correct and good point about the possible overproduction------but -----think how great it would be to stay absolutely alert during all waking hours-----think about the increase in brain useage. We currently use only one percent of our brain potential.

The nucleic acid repair mechanisms function during sleep.. If no sleep, repair is decreased, and the frequency of mutation is increased. Probably would result in an increased incidence of illness and a shortened life span.

Hmm, perception, I am not sure that if the sleep is eliminated I shall be able to enjoy this. Employers will immediately find way to deprive us from abundancy of free time...

steissd

I think there is a misunderstanding here----I kow the title of the thread is "Elimination of sleep" but I at least think that is impossible and Fresco wanted to discount the physiological aspects of this question and deal with only the ethical and sociological implications.
Thus my statement that while there are some useful benefits with regard to jet lag, shift work etc. my idea of great benefit would be the ability to stay alert all during waking hours and thus give the brain more stimuli from which to gain knowledge