FAITH: what's the point?

What a big, rambling question.

If faith is the belief in things not seen, I can see where it could be a good thing, and a bad thing.

Depends on what you place your faith it.

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the value in faith is highly subjective. it's a form of waiting with hope. it's a waiting (hopefully) without resentment. having some kind of faith saves a lot of energy from worry, although, at times, worry can be beneficial-- so much of life is out of our control.

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Gala wrote:

the value in faith is highly subjective. it's a form of waiting with hope. it's a waiting (hopefully) without resentment. having some kind of faith saves a lot of energy from worry, although, at times, worry can be beneficial-- so much of life is out of our control.

Nice reply, Gala.

Question though: When can "worry be beneficial"?
I don't mean this as an attack, just wondering what your thinking is on this?

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I don't think faith is always a form of waiting with hope, at least not primarily. Not all religions place their emphasis on what will happen beyond this world, unless I misunderstood you.

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i'm not talking about religion dauer, i'm talking about faith. and i'm not talking about the afterworld-- i'm talking about day-today concerns, things that are beyond my control... things as trivial as hoping the subway will arrive as soon as i enter the station etc, to more personal matters.

and when i say waiting, i'm talking about real waiting...not the kind of twisting of the hands ala lady Macbeth, or the kind of Christian waiting, which i generally associate as rensentful waiting... this is more along the lines of knowing that i will, know matter what, accept the outcome, whether it be a missed train, to a busted relationship.

as for worry being beneficial, extra medium, i mean, it can, at times be a motivator, a call to action instead of being passive-- even if that action means cleaning the toilet bowl.

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'faith' is the refuge of the lazy, uninformed 'user'; those for whom a preselected package of 'ideas' (masquerading as 'knowledge') is preferable to 'thinking'.

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IMO, faith is a form of "wishful thinking". It is a conclusion based on nothing rational or logical.

If you say for instance, "I have faith in that doctor", because you have dealt with him successfully, know others who have had good results with him and have checked his credentials, to me, that is not faith. That is an educated conclusion, based on information and personal experience.

I have faith that the sun will rise every morning, because through the ages, it always has.

If you have faith based on nothing but hope, if you have no logical reasons to back it up, IMO that is in the realm of wishful thinking.

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Faith is to believe in defiance of reason.

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faith is not the refuge of the lazy. that's too simplisitic, although i could see how, at times, it can become confused with apathy-- that is not what i'm speaking of. sometimes, it's ok, to do nothing when you are faced with a difficult situation.

having faith, in the long run, that everything will turn out ok, is also a good survival/energy saving mechanism. so, in this sense, it is practical.

life often defies logic, and that's where creativity comes into play. it's more or less a willingness to come to some understanding of how you got from point A to point B, even if point B isn't so rosy. faith is not so black and white.

and, one more thing... if logical reason backs up everything you do... then why do you seek out friendship, love etc.? aren't such pursuits in the hope that their will be reciprocation? humans are not as predicatable as the sun rising and setting everyday.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

IMO, faith is a form of "wishful thinking". It is a conclusion based on nothing rational or logical.

If you say for instance, "I have faith in that doctor", because you have dealt with him successfully, know others who have had good results with him and have checked his credentials, to me, that is not faith. That is an educated conclusion, based on information and personal experience.

I have faith that the sun will rise every morning, because through the ages, it always has.

If you have faith based on nothing but hope, if you have no logical reasons to back it up, IMO that is in the realm of wishful thinking.

i think Phoenix, that you are referring to a less formal vernacular use of the word, which uses logic to create an expectation; i agree with asherman, formal "faith" is anathema to logic!

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I suppose faith that one can survive can be a very good thing for a cancer patient or someone stuck in the Andes.

It can, I believe, produce an inner strength that can be the difference in life and death for some.

I think faith can produce a positive biological response in some.

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Sofia wrote:

What a big, rambling question.

Thanks

phoenix wrote:

If you say for instance, "I have faith in that doctor", because you have dealt with him successfully, know others who have had good results with him and have checked his credentials, to me, that is not faith. That is an educated conclusion, based on information and personal experience.

I have faith that the sun will rise every morning, because through the ages, it always has.

I don't see what the difference is between believing that the sun will rise every morning because it always has and believing that your doctor will give good results because he always has. It seems that they're both the same sorts of beliefs, whether or not they can be called 'faith'.

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The point of faith is to give the bearer security in the present concerning stuff in the future.

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Phoenix, Sofia, and Reverend have shown us reasonable uses of the term "faith." But when "faith" is used unreasonably, as in religion, (even though it may be subjectively functional for those who fear death), it becomes venemous. This is particularly so because "faith" has, in religion, shifted from a morally neutral statement of confidence to a claim to moral superiority, a kind of obligation of the mind--and a socially sanctioned basis for interpersonal oppression.

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I never got that from 'faith', JLN.

Could you give an example of faith as venomous?

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I did, Sofia: the social consequences (religious intolerance) of fusing morality with confidence. It is "venemous" to rate people who have no confidence in the belief in a christian or muslim god as immoral (infidels and heathens).

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Well, I think I see where you're going--but I wonder if 'faith' is the culprit.

Maybe it's what some people "do with" faith?

Even in religion, it can be a good thing--yes?

I can imagine there are wonderful, quiet practitioners of faith in all religions, and non-religions.

<not fussing>

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JLN, I agree with you but I think your first statement is a blanket statement and your second one may be as well. When faith is part of a religion, that is not a guarantee that it will make others less-than. Certainly there are moral codes in Western religions, but these codes don't always claim to include the whole of humanity.

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Well, that's right. Concepts are not culprits; it's what human do with concepts that does the harm. But it should be obvious to us that speech and writing (what we do with language) IS action.

On the other hand--forgetting about morality--faith in the absence of sensible evidence, is intellectually problematical. Christians argue that the "evidence" provided by biblical "witnesses" provides sound bases for their faith, and the intuitive experiences of mystics is considered "evidence" by them. The metaphysical foundation upon which scientific truths rest, is no more solid. Scientific evidence should evoke only a tentative faith in its explanatory power because Science is an on-going self-transcending project. Most of the scientific truths of today should become the rejected notions of the future. Otherwise Science is not progressing.

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FAITH: what's the point?

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