66
   

How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 10:56 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

I have often wondered why there is such a "battle" between science and religion. I had long thought that it was because religion has sometimes hindered the progress of science. However, science has become a religion of it's own.
To me at least 99 percent of people do not have enough knowledge to know Origins. It is merely a question of what one places his faith in.


Placing faith in fantasies dream up by priests instead of science is hardly very wise.
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 11:36 am
@BillRM,
Bill----Can you clarify for me what you mean by "priest"?
The priest in the Hebrew Bible performed spiritual activities to represent the people before God.
In Biblical Christianity, all believers are priests before God. One role of Jesus is to be our High Priest, meaning that He is believers' ultimate representative before God the Father.
In Catholicism, there are priests in the local church who represents the parishioners before God (e.g. confession of sin).
Which priest are you talking about?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 12:11 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Abiogenesis, or informally the origin of life,[3][4][5][a] is the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.[6][4][7][8] While the details of this process are still unknown,...
I’m beginning to doubt your ability to read. This silly statement from your source contradicts itself in the first two sentences.

If it is 'known' that it was a 'natural process', why are all the details of that process not known?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 01:30 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Bill----Can you clarify for me what you mean by "priest"?
The priest in the Hebrew Bible performed spiritual activities to represent the people before God.
In Biblical Christianity, all believers are priests before God. One role of Jesus is to be our High Priest, meaning that He is believers' ultimate representative before God the Father.
In Catholicism, there are priests in the local church who represents the parishioners before God (e.g. confession of sin).
Which priest are you talking about?


Priests anyone who made a living or assuming a high position of power in a society by convicting others that they have a pipeline to a god that they themselves either dream up such as Joseph Smith or who sell the religions beliefs of others such as the current head of the Mormon church by the name of Russell M. Nelson.

footnote this is not mean to select the Mormon faith out as any less valid then any of the others as they are all nonsense dating back to the caves where a member of the tribe first convict his fellows that he have the power to get game animals to come near due to his friendship with the gods/spirits.
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 02:25 pm
@BillRM,
I imagine you are talking about Noah.
Noah is important in the discussion about Evolution because the flood (supposedly) dramatically changed the physical nature of the earth and the atmosphere above the earth. Thus, Scientists today can not accurately determine what occurred before the Flood.
As for Joseph Smith he is one of many people who use religion to gain personal greed of some kind. As you noted religious people are sometimes rather naive. For example, some Christians force the Holy Spirit to turn their speech into incoherent sounds.
Science is more rational. However, since science can not explain the spiritual world, some of them pretend that the spiritual world does no exist.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 02:47 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

I imagine you are talking about Noah.
Noah is important in the discussion about Evolution because the flood (supposedly) dramatically changed the physical nature of the earth and the atmosphere above the earth. Thus, Scientists today can not accurately determine what occurred before the Flood.
As for Joseph Smith he is one of many people who use religion to gain personal greed of some kind. As you noted religious people are sometimes rather naive. For example, some Christians force the Holy Spirit to turn their speech into incoherent sounds.
Science is more rational. However, since science can not explain the spiritual world, some of them pretend that the spiritual world does no exist.


What world wide repeat world wide flood would that be other then a story in the Bible?????

There are some indicated that there had been some very very large scale flooding events such as the now black sea area being flood but no world wide flood such as the Bible story and even that is not firm footing.

Quote:

whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/noahs-not-so-big-flood/

New evidence rebuts controversial theory of Black Sea deluge
By Lonny Lippsett | August 14, 2009
A long time ago, whether your time frame is biblical or geological, the Black Sea was a large freshwater Black “Lake.” It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a high piece of land that dammed the entry of salty seawater through the narrow connecting Bosphorus valley.

When Earth’s last ice age waned, water frozen into vast ice sheets melted and returned to the ocean, elevating sea levels. About 9,400 years ago, Mediterranean waters rose above the dam, reconnecting the two seas. They surged over the now submerged Bosphorus Sill with the force of 200 Niagara Falls, according to a controversial theory proposed in 1997 by Columbia University marine geologists Bill Ryan and Walter Pitman. The resulting deluge, they speculated, could have wiped out early human settlements around the lake’s perimeter and inspired the Noah’s Ark story in the Bible, the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh, and catastrophic flood myths among other peoples.

The story behind the stories sparked a best-selling book, considerable popular interest, and a lot of subsequent research to support or refute the theory.

Now, a new study in the January 2009 issue of Quaternary Science Reviews suggests that if the flood occurred at all, it was much smaller—hardly of biblical proportions. Liviu Giosan of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) and Florin Filip and Stefan Constantinescu of the University of Bucharest found evidence that Black Lake/Sea water levels rose only 5 to 10 meters around 9,400 years ago, not 50 to 60 meters as Ryan and his colleagues proposed. The flood would have drowned only about 2,000 square kilometers of land (about half of Rhode Island), rather than 70,000 square kilometers (more than the entire state of West Virginia).

A core through the Danube delta
Fueling the debate is the difficulty of finding reliable ways to reconstruct “Black Lake’s” water level before the flood. Investigating seafloor features, Ryan and Pitman inferred former shorelines or beach dunes, now drowned, and estimated that Black Lake was at least 80 meters lower than the Black Sea today.

But sand deposits are molded and eroded by underwater currents and can be misleadingly interpreted as dunes or beaches, and so they are less than reliable indicators of past sea levels, Giosan and colleagues said. Instead, they went to the Danube River, which empties into the Black Sea and forms an immense, flat, stable sedimentary delta. It’s like a big tabletop that forms right where land meets water and doesn’t easily move up or down. As such, it makes an excellent sea-level marker.

In 2007, Giosan and his colleagues drilled a 42-meter-deep core through sediments that have piled up since the early Danube delta began forming before 10,000 years ago. At the base of the modern Danube delta, they found deep delta sediments formed in fresh water, subsequently overlaid by fine sediments formed in seawater.

Was the drowning of the first delta the result of seawater overflowing the Bosphorus sill and surging up the beach? To figure out when sediments are deposited, whether on the seafloor, lakes or on land, scientists use radiocarbon dating of organic materials including fossil shells of clams or snails found in the layer. But that can sometimes be misleading, because waves can erode sediments on the seabed, heave up older shells, and redeposit them in “younger” sediments.

A new approach
To reduce the uncertainties, Giosan and his team used an approach that had not been used before in the Black Sea. They dated only bivalve shells whose halves were still attached to each other, as they are when the animals are alive. The shells are held together by an organic substance. It degrades quickly, and the shells separate when the animal dies. Still-attached shells indicate that the animals died in the layer at the time it was created and were not subsequently moved by waves.

Combining the more precise dating technique with a more reliable sea-level marker, the researchers could be confident and conclude that the “Black Lake” water level at the time of the flood was around 30—not 80—meters lower than present, and the flood raised the level by only 5 to 10—not 50 to 60—meters.

A more modest flood “still could have put an area of 2,000 square kilometers of prime agricultural land in the Danube delta under water, which has important implications for the archaeology and anthropology of Europe,” Giosan said. But was it enough to prompt an ark?

The research was funded by the WHOI Coastal Ocean Institute, the U.S. National Science Foundation, and the Romanian National Science Foundation.

SLIDESHOW
BlackSea3D-250_92517.jpg

NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2020 04:19 pm
@BillRM,
Assumptions are made by both sides. My conclusion is that we don't know.
Science is good at explaining the world as it exists now. It is horrible at predicting the near future. It is very limited at explaining the ancient past.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2020 08:55 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Assumptions are made by both sides. My conclusion is that we don't know.
Science is good at explaining the world as it exists now. It is horrible at predicting the near future. It is very limited at explaining the ancient past.


It the best we have or ever will have for that matter an far far far better then some religion fantasy that had been dream up.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2020 01:57 pm
Science can not deny that the spiritual world exists

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2020 02:09 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Science can’t, but 'Science' often does.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2020 04:31 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Science can not deny that the spiritual world exists




That is a complete non sense as science can not deny that the tooth fairy exist or the god Zeus exist either.

All you can said is that there is no evidence of either the tooth fairy or a spiritual world exist.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2020 06:15 pm
Therefore, theology should have a relationship with science that is non-combative in the free world.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2020 07:29 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Therefore, theology should have a relationship with science that is non-combative in the free world.


Come on when the religion people wish to teach out young people complete religion nonsense is on equal footing in public schools with science that should be end stop.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2020 05:44 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Come on when the religion people wish to teach out young people complete religion nonsense is on equal footing in public schools with science that should be end stop.
I don’t have a problem with separation of church and state, but I draw the line at not allowing any challenge to the current theory. The fact that Some 'scientists', 'educators' and 'internet experts' respond smugly with 'but this is settled science' amply proves that does happen.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2020 04:31 pm
Have you ever considered the good things that come from Christianity? For example, most hospitals were founded by Christians. Princeton, Yale, etc. were Christian Universitys. Charities we're mostly Christian.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2020 04:51 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

Have you ever considered the good things that come from Christianity? For example, most hospitals were founded by Christians. Princeton, Yale, etc. were Christian Universitys. Charities we're mostly Christian.


Hmm so we should allow the state with state funds to promote one religion to our children?

Hate to tell you this but a lot of non Christians organizations do good works including the Muslims so Islam should be promoted in our schools for that reason?
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2020 06:39 pm
I would not mind if schools alternated Jewish, Christian, and Islam prayers. In the early grades, they could pray to God. In the later grades, they could receive the Shema. In very late grades they could receive the Shema in Hebrew.
They could also read from the Hebrew prayer book (perhaps leaving out page 7).
NealNealNeal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2020 06:48 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Recite instead of receive.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2020 12:40 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

I would not mind if schools alternated Jewish, Christian, and Islam prayers. In the early grades, they could pray to God. In the later grades, they could receive the Shema. In very late grades they could receive the Shema in Hebrew.
They could also read from the Hebrew prayer book (perhaps leaving out page 7).


An the children who are raise under another of the hundreds of other religions such as Shinto and Buddhism it just too damn bad for them an their families?

I still remember after 60 plus years how I enjoy the daily bible readings an school prayers as an atheist

Sorry religion indoctrination does not belong in the public schools of a free society.
0 Replies
 
Endeavor to know God
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2020 03:52 am
The answer lies in the fact that we have absolutely no knowing of God. All we know about God is limited to the word "God" nothing more. Religions, throughout history, have claimed issues on God 99% of which contradicts with what we perceive and experience in our lives.
Does God say a thing that would contradict itself? How would God say things that would call its entirety into question?

Although based on a lot of reasons and evidence, Koran is claimed to be distorted, there are some verses about evil which clearly shows that God has bestowed evil the authority to rule the world.


Sura Al-Isra (Verses 61-64)

And [mention] when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Satan. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"

Satan said, "Do You see this one whom You have honored above me? If You delay me until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely destroy his descendants, except for a few."

[Allah] said, "Go, for whoever of them follows you, indeed Hell will be the recompense of you - an ample recompense."

"Lead to destruction those whom you can among them with your (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with your cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them. But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.

Aren't these verses clearly showing that God has permitted evil to do anything he wants to people and their lives?
Haven't we experienced such things happening to humans in the form of lies, fights, battles, killings, deception ... etc. in our lives?
Aren't our minds being affected by lots of negative thoughts injected by evil which will turn in to our negative actions?
So if we believe that evil is permitted to take control, then the entirety of our lives will somehow be badly affected by negativity. That is why even the books that are regarded to be sent down from heaven have been distorted by evil powers.
There is no escape from this mess unless we all ask the Almighty God to give an end to this order and set us all free.
 

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