72
   

How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2018 11:42 am
@Olivier5,
Let me put it another way....that 'fresco' and that Olivier' are mutually changing each other's receptive states 'or selves' as the communication unfolds. ' Structivist examination' for me is be aware of this, and my more general shifting interactions with 'the world'.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Tue 6 Nov, 2018 01:45 pm
@fresco,
ok, that makes sense I think. My point was simply that everyday life and philosophy are intertwined. Even people who loathe philosophy actually do quite a lot of it, without being aware of it.

I was babysitting kids when I was a student. Two of them, 7 and 5 year old, once asked me (and I could tell from their face it was a very important and troubling question for them): "Olivier, why do people have to die?" (pourquoi est-ce que les gens meurent?) That's not just a biological question. It's also philosophical. And it's a question we all grapple with once in a while.
fresco
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 04:17 am
@Olivier5,
Yes, and relative to the OP, deists would no problem answering those kids about 'dying' , but major problems with 'suffering' unless they played the 'sin' card, say.

brianjakub
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 06:51 am
@fresco,
Quote:
You are asking why your celestial menage a trois being a 'social group' is not 'logical'. Well irrespective of Isaac Newton's problems of rejecting The Trinity (a precarious belief for the Master of Trinity College), its religious origins in the magic number 3, of which the Hindu gunas is an earlier example, tends to put it beyond the pale as far as Aristotelean 'logic' is concerned. You could of course try a bit of Hegelian 'dialectic' instead (thesis/antithesis/synthesis) as an alternative 'logic' (there are many), but I doubt whether that would serve your facile view of 'mind'.


Why can't you keep the discussion to what you and I think. The Hegelian dialect has some logic to it but, is incomplete and veers off from the simple truth.

1. Everything contains information and information always reveals something about the author..
2. Information comes from ideas. (you are right the mental comes first)
3. If information is to be shared it must be shared in the physical world using matter.
4. The author of the information gets to decide the correct interpretation of the message the information is delivering.

If that is fascicle then maybe that is a good thing. Or, are you trying to bury the simple objective truth in a bunch of big words and overly complex philosophical explanations like Derrida?
fresco
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 09:00 am
@brianjakub,
Ah...the 'complexity' ploy ! Laughing
It really quite simple.
1. 'Things' are 'thinged' in the mind of the 'thinger'.
2. The consensus is that there is no evidence for a deity who does the 'thinging' even if you cling to that story.
3. 'Information' is what enables 'minds' to make decisions.
4. 'Correct and incorrect' are subject to consensus and have no 'absolute' value.
5. 'Physicality' is a concept 'thinged' by humans and generally having agreed details due to common sensory apparatus.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 09:35 am
@fresco,
Quote:
'dying'

When death comes, she doesn't dress in quotation marks...
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 08:25 pm
@fresco,
1. God is a thinger with a mind.

2. The consensus is there is a God. Atheists are minority. According to wiki 7% of the worlds population are atheist.

3. Information is what allows the mind to make comparisons.

4. Correct and incorrect are subject to consensus if the original author isn't available for his opinion.

5. I agree physicality is a concept 'thinged' by humans and generally have agreed details due to common sensory apparatus. Fortunately the God who made things stepped on the earth as a human with the same sensory apparatus so, consensus isnt always necessary since he gave us the correct interpretation of the information He created.
fresco
 
  1  
Thu 8 Nov, 2018 01:11 am
@brianjakub,
Erratum.
The consensus among scientists is that there is no evidence....
The fact that a Wiki article claimed that 93% of the general population use a psychological opiate does not surprise me.

...But I'll leave you to play with LL who is 'a believer' who needs someone to talk to. Maybe you two would like to resurrect the traditional theological question of 'how many angels can dance on the point of a pin'. Have fun!
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 8 Nov, 2018 05:56 am
@fresco,
Quote:
1. 'Things' are 'thinged' in the mind of the 'thinger'.

Sounds like solipsism to me.
fresco
 
  1  
Thu 8 Nov, 2018 08:25 am
@Leadfoot,
...Not solipsism because 'minds' operate with socially acquired words. 'Things' are mutually useful. Physical 'things' generally have wide consensus, but metaphysical things like 'God' have utility confined to smaller audiences.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Thu 29 Nov, 2018 07:54 pm
@fresco,
Words store information for communications. Physical things store information in their atoms and molecules. So things are Words whether there is anybody there to agree on the meaning of the words or not.

Fortunately there are three people that claimed to have made all the atoms and they agreed on their meaning (stored as information in them) when they spoke them into existence at the beginning of our observable universe.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 30 Nov, 2018 09:00 am
@fresco,
Quote:
things like 'God' have utility confined to smaller audiences.

Ah, confirmation, that's what he said too.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 12:50 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Words store information for communications. Physical things store information in their atoms and molecules. So things are Words whether there is anybody there to agree on the meaning of the words or not.

Fortunately there are three people that claimed to have made all the atoms and they agreed on their meaning (stored as information in them) when they spoke them into existence at the beginning of our observable universe.

Atoms and molecules aren't 'made' so much as they are formed from earlier configurations. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. It just keeps changing form. Form changes are caused and they are causal, i.e. they cause further occurrences beyond their present existence.

Now the question is whether the mechanistic/causal nature of the universe should be interpreted in terms of divine authority or not. If we reject divine authority, we assume that all the spiritual things we experience, such as conscious awareness/perception, intelligence, wisdom, etc. are random phenomena that have nothing to do with the inherent nature of the universe.

If, on the other hand, we acknowledge that the only reason we can experience an observation or analytical conclusion as being true is because there is an inherent capacity built into the universe to be(come) aware of things and know them (and/or know that they are falsely represented), then what else could you attribute this innate capacity for true vs. false representations to except divine authority?

In short, if 2+2=4 and never 5, how can this be true except by some transcendent nature of the universe to be what it is and not what it's not, and for it to know the difference?
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 02:34 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
if 2+2=4 and never 5, how can this be true except by some transcendent nature of the universe to be what it is and not what it's not, and for it to know the difference?


Congratulations ! That's the finest display of mathematical and philosophical ignorance I have seen for some time.

Homework:
1. Discuss the nominal level of measurement (naming and counting) with repect to differential meanings of the symbol "+"
2. Discuss "facticity" with respect to the word "is" and the philosophical movement (E prime)which attempted to proscribe its use.
3. Compare and contrast different theories of "truth" with respect to Popper's Falsifiability Principle as a basis for what is called "scientific progress"' with particular reference to probability as used in QM research.
4. Discuss the proposition of Lakoff and Nunez that all mathematics originates in human experience of interaction with its perceived environment, and has no transcendental or metaphysical origin.

"Philosophy is the fight against our bewitchment by ordinary language"
(Ludwig Wittgenstein}



livinglava
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 04:03 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
if 2+2=4 and never 5, how can this be true except by some transcendent nature of the universe to be what it is and not what it's not, and for it to know the difference?


Congratulations ! That's the finest display of mathematical and philosophical ignorance I have seen for some time.

Homework:
1. Discuss the nominal level of measurement (naming and counting) with repect to differential meanings of the symbol "+"
2. Discuss "facticity" with respect to the word "is" and the philosophical movement (E prime)which attempted to proscribe its use.
3. Compare and contrast different theories of "truth" with respect to Popper's Falsifiability Principle as a basis for what is called "scientific progress"' with particular reference to probability as used in QM research.
4. Discuss the proposition of Lakoff and Nunez that all mathematics originates in human experience of interaction with its perceived environment, and has no transcendental or metaphysical origin.

"Philosophy is the fight against our bewitchment by ordinary language"
(Ludwig Wittgenstein}

It's just a simple example of how the universe has evolved the capacity to understand itself in terms of representation, both true and false. Think about it: Earth revolves around the sun but why does the universe simultaneously evolve a solar system and life forms on one of the planets that develops the ability to know that planets are orbiting the sun, calculate various aspects of the motion, etc.?

In short, there is truth, knowledge, and within the range of possible representations, there is also the capacity to represent things less accurately, and even abuse that same representational power to lie for power and personal gain. In other words, the universe contains a latent potential to be aware of itself and know itself through active thought and representation, communication, etc.

What is the source of that capacity of matter-energy formations to do that and not just mechanically move around without consciously experiencing anything at all?
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 04:16 pm
@livinglava,
Sorry. I can't get down to your level of naiviy about howt or why humans obtain their shifting concepts of "the universe". You remind me of the apocryphal native who had no problem with what anthropologists told him about " the movement of the stars" but could not understand how people knew the names of them.. That's approximately your level of discourse.
livinglava
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 04:38 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Sorry. I can't get down to your level of naiviy about howt or why humans obtain their shifting concepts of "the universe". You remind me of the apocryphal native who had no problem with what anthropologists told him about " the movement of the stars" but could not understand how people knew the names of them.. That's approximately your level of discourse.

How do humans have the capacity to witness and understand patterns of nature?

From a humanist perspective, this isn't such a baffling question; but in terms of consciousness and the capacity to distinguish truth from falsity, how is that potential fundamentally built into the four forces that govern the universe, i.e. electromagnetism, gravity, and nuclear force? Somehow these forces have the capacity built into them that they can come together and form living matter and then transform that living matter into intelligent consciousness. That capacity must be built into the nature of the universe at the most fundamental level.

Think of it another way: are you familiar with the multiverse theory that there is basically an infinite number of different possible universes that could emerge and evolve, with different laws of nature, some would survive and evolve while others would just fizzle out immediately? Based on that theory, what is it in all those possible universes that has the capacity for consciousness and thought?

How can we assume that humans and other beings of similar configurations are the only form that consciousness and intelligence in the universe could take?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 06:19 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
The consensus among scientists is that there is no evidence....


They should not use that consensus to rule out the opposing opinion when 97% of the population disagrees with it.

And they also make it hard to be promoted as a scientist if you dis agree. with them.

I just watched a video by atheist physicist Sean Caroll. https://able2know.org/topic/384507-17#post-6741432

He says that he was told that you cannot publish a paper on a Quantum description of gravity but, that is the paper that will introduce the complexity to the structure of all space that will reveal a need for a God.

So how will science discover God when you can't publish papers that will reveal Him?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 08:16 pm
@brianjakub,
There are no complexities; it's all nature and evolution.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sun 2 Dec, 2018 10:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Are you saying nature isn't complex.? Then can you simply explain where gravity comes from?

How inanimate molecules turned into living beings?
0 Replies
 
 

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