How can a good God allow suffering

@InfraBlue,

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You are assuming all processes have a beginning and an ending. . .Something was occurring before that point in time.

Before that time the universe wasn't inflating. But something has to be there to in-flate so before that space had to be arranged into a matter with a quantum creation event. If there are no particles of matter There are no yardsticks. If there are no yardsticks to Measure density and distance There can be no way to observe inflation.

Quote:

There are mathematical models that indicate this possibility.

That is the nice thing about mathematical models, they don't have to make sense in reality. Fortunately reality always make sense.

And for reality to make sense something else to put the energy that is stored in matter as order into order. Space does an arranged southland a quantum particles of mattoer automatically. If it did we would see hydrogen Atoms popping into existence in empty space.

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@brianjakub,

They make sense. It's now for the scientists to provide evidence.

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@brianjakub,

brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
You are assuming all processes have a beginning and an ending. . .Something was occurring before that point in time.

Before that time the universe wasn't inflating. But something has to be there to in-flate so before that space had to be arranged into a matter with a quantum creation event. If there are no particles of matter There are no yardsticks. If there are no yardsticks to Measure density and distance There can be no way to observe inflation.

You continue to make assumptions.

brianjakub wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
There are mathematical models that indicate this possibility.

That is the nice thing about mathematical models, they don't have to make sense in reality. Fortunately reality always make sense.

And for reality to make sense something else to put the energy that is stored in matter as order into order. Space does an arranged southland a quantum particles of mattoer automatically. If it did we would see hydrogen Atoms popping into existence in empty space.

Your assumptions are not "reality."

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Space does not arrange into the particles of matter automatically otherwise we would see hydrogen popping into existence.

I am making a Sumption's and patterns I observe. I see information coming into existence in the universe every day. Every time I do there's an intelligence behind it. I think it is safe to assume that has always been true. Why is it wrong to assume that consistent patterns are always consistent?

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@brianjakub,

One thing is assuming that consistent patterns are always consistent. Another thing is assuming that consistent patterns are always consistent because of "an intelligence behind it."

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@InfraBlue,

All I am assuming is that the intelligence behind the universe has some simalr and some different characteristics than the intelligent Beings living on earth today. It is easy to compare the characteristics that are similar to and the characteristics of the things that are different and deduct what the intelligence behind the universe is like . There are certain things all intelligent beings have to do to present an intelligent idea to another intelligent being. But there are some physical characteristics that would be attributed to a being that can create all the matter in the universe that a being that lives inside that matter in the universe does not have.

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@brianjakub,

Nature can be a blessing and/or a curse. No superman out there in the sky watching over us. No god allows human suffering. It's all in nature that we live out our lives. Some are lucky to live over 100 years, while others die at birth or before. That's all in the nature of things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation Why Japanese live long. According to recent studies, the answer could well lie in Japan. The Japanese top the global table for life expectancy: on average, they can expect to live for 83.7 years (the UK comes 20th, with an average of 81.2 years).Sep 20, 2017
Japanese people live longer than the rest of us – so what's their secret?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/secret-japanese-longevity/

The statistic shows the average life expectancy in North America for those born in 2018, by gender and region. In Canada, the average life expectancy was 80 years for males and 84 years for females in 2018.
• Life expectancy in North America in 2018 | Statistic
https://www.statista.com/statistics/274513/life-expectancy-in-north-america/

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Nature is a system of information management that came into existence some time ago. Only systems can have a blessing or a curse. It wouildn’t be managing information if you couldn’t tell the difference between a blessing or curse.

You are on the right track though. It takes intelligence to recognize and understand an intelligently designed system and then determine its purpose.

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@brianjakub,

It's not a "system." It's the result of nature and evolution. Nobody has any control over what has happened in this universe.

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@brianjakub,

You're making the assumption that there is an "intelligence behind the universe."

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@InfraBlue,

I am assuming there is an intelligence behind the information.

Isn't that a logical assumption?

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@brianjakub,

It may be, but it isn't necessary.

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@InfraBlue,

Sorry but this 'information' game is total rubbish.
Information by definition informs decision making. It has no existential status without an 'observer with choice'. The assumption that there is 'an intelligent transmitter of information' is blatant anthropomorphism. Those paintings of God (with a beard) sending messages from his seat in the clouds nicely sums up that position. This OP about 'God allowing suffering' is exactly consistent with this childish picture of that 'big controller', and no amount of pseudo scientific ignorance about 'information' will distance believers from that picture.

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Brianjakub is responsible for that "information" dodge, not Infrablue.

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Yes. The 'reply to all button' is another method of avoiding direct contact.

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@fresco,

You should read this:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/information-biological/

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@Olivier5,

Thanks for that. I note that the paragraph....

Quote:

A minority tradition has argued that the enthusiasm for information in biology has been a serious theoretical wrong turn, and that it fosters naive genetic determinism, other distortions of our understanding of the roles of interacting causes, or an implicitly dualist ontology. However, this sceptical response is fading, with key sceptics coming to accept a modest but genuine role for informational concepts in the life sciences. Others have taken the critique seriously but tried to distinguish legitimate appeals to information from misleading or erroneous ones.

...ostensibly puts me in 'the minority', but my interest in Maturna's rejection of 'information' together with his acceptance of the 'dissipative structure' view of evolution currently looking promising in abiogenetic views (e.g. Pross) supports my position. I put 'information speak' down to our recent embracing of computer analogies...a zetgeist issue which will have its day until the paradigm ultimately breaks down.

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@fresco,

The current consensus is that DNA carries genetic information, that hormones and neurotransmetors cary information, etc. I seriously doubt it will change anytime soon.

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@Olivier5,

Note how our understanding of 'gravity' has shifted over less than a century from being 'a force' to being an intrinsic aspect of space-time. That is not to say that the 'force' concept is not useful for local predictions, but that is simply not 'the full story'. So too, I suggest, will be the case with 'information theory'.
Have a look at 'autopoiesis' to see where I'm coming from.

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@fresco,

That's akin to crystal ball gazing.

1 Reply

How can a good God allow suffering

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