700 Inconsistencies in the Bible

I guess in that case, there is no moral obligation to advise someone that they are about to fall off a cliff when one sees that it is imminent. One could be wrong.

So what do you do?

Actually, I thought it was a moral imperative to try to save life when possible.

I personally don't care whether people join my religion. As it stands, I have one follower (me!) so yeah whatever. However, things like nihilism or murder or as Leadfoot says, a life that is about to fall off a cliff, yeah I might want to at least talk you out of it. In other words, I won't make you a Christian or whatever I believe in, but I have been known to try to talk people out of atheism if it seems to be a cynical path to self-destructive desires.

The secular world is spiritually bankrupt, and teaches about ten things that aren't so.
https://www.faena.com/aleph/10-scientific-dogmas-that-need-to-be-reevaluated


Actually, these are wrong. Btw, we had a working herbal medicine system until Big Oil produced a bunch of crappy synthetic medicine and set up a propaganda campaign that herbs don't treat health issues. Tell that to consumers of poppies (opium). Science tells us how powerless we are, hos big the universe is... that's great an all, but we are the only planet with life so the rest of this doesn't matter. And life has free will. We are not slaves to our genes.

To test any idea, take it to the extreme.

Fair enough. If we ingest large doses of saffron, we are poisoned. Ditto for chocolate (you can literally die from chocolate, though you'd have to basically extract it into megadoses, to get the theobromine out). Cinnamon has anti-insulin properties and yams have some natural estrogens. As do most fruits. Nvm soybeans, I could turn into a pretty softboy eating nothing but yams and fruit with a few nuts and grains. Herbs work, as seen by many of them having druglike effects in doses past what would be normal. Garlic is a blood pressure lowerer (vampire stories are trying to teach us something), and usually puts me to sleep if I eat it when my pressure is already low.

Meanwhile synthetic medicine is often fillered with oils and chemicals produced by industrial companies. Most of the side effects come from that or the fact that herbs have the entire plant, including other chemicals that render those safe. So suppose we decide that any chemicals extracted from herbs are no good, and simply take megadoses of the oil-based fillers. Call me in the morning?

On those ten laws, they preach, basically it boils down to humans being insignificant and incapable of making decisions outside of our genes. So I guess at the logical extreme, we're done here. Nobody's able to think, so forums like this are worthless. Now, there are an awful lot of people who seem made of stone, but I suspect this has alot more to do with an appalling propaganda system hidden within our education system, basically turning people into folks that cannot question what they've been taught.

Keh? Your example is very flawed - how do they come to believe there is no cliff there? Obviously because they didn't see it, meaning, meaning it has nothing to do with what I commented on - that of people ignoring what is known to them when it comes time to forming their beliefs.

That aside, you also raised the issue of moral obligations, which is also different to 'taking no issue'. You can be true to your own morals without taking issue with another persons morals or beliefs (that they hold only for themselves). Ie. You can look after a persons safety while not taking issue with their beliefs. Once they start trying to tell you they are correct, then there may be an issue (if its the cliff scenario, and they know about it, then I'd say there's a mental health issue).

Having read your slant on the biblical creation story ‘onevoice’, I thought that I should put my view forward also.

First of all, I should point out that each creative day is not an earthly 24 hours day, but as described in the scriptures, each creative day is one generation of our eternal oscillating universe.

A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite.

Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe, from which singularity our eternal oscillating and ever evolving universe is resurrected to continue on in that everlasting process.

Russian physicist and mathematician Alexander Friedmann, in the early 1920s, became the first person to embrace the idea that the equations of Einstein’s general theory of relativity called for a universe in motion.

The Friedmann universe begins with a Big Bang and continues expanding for untold billions of years—that’s the stage we’re in now. But after a long enough period of time, the mutual gravitational attraction of all the matter slows the expansion to a stop. The universe then starts to fall in on itself, replaying the expansion in reverse. Eventually all the matter collapses back into a singularity, in what physicist John Wheeler likes to call the “Big Crunch.”

Here we see the eternal oscillating universe. The singularity of origin is spatially separated in the event known as the Big Bang, spewing out a liquid like plasma of pure electromagnetic energy, which was in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, or, according to scientific measurements (180 million trillion, trillion degrees Fahrenheit), which electromagnetic energy has been converted to that which we perceive as matter, only to be-reconverted to its original form as electromagnetic energy during the phase of the Big Crunch.

After billions upon billions of years, that universe, with all the information gathered in that generation, is swallowed by a Massive Black Hole where all matter is ripped apart by the unmeasurable gravitational force, and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it originated and crushed into the singularity from which the next generation of the universe will be created.

According to the ancients, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy.”

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being too non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day, a period of universal activity of light and life, as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis. ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day, and is seen as the period of rest for the “GREAT THOUGHT’. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis 2: 4; as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth,” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; it is written concerning the six days of creation; “These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.” And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection, are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an ‘EIGHTH’ day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one aeon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

To be continued.

Could be due to Spiritual blindness.

So you feel no urge to keep a blind man from falling off a spiritual cliff?
Or are you just unable to grasp metaphor?
I think Jesus used a sheep falling into a pit, in his parable.
You would not try to pull someone out who fell into one i guess?

I don't take issue with most beliefs.

I believe beliefs about the afterlife are self-creating. That is, a person BUILDS their afterlife by having a strong set of beliefs. You believe in reincarnation? You'll be reincarnated. A forest afterlife? To the woods you'll go. Fluffy cloud heaven? Sure, fine that's cool.

And then, there's belief systems that actively try to dissuade people from believing in an afterlife. What, why?

Look, if you don't wanna believe in God, believe psychic energy is building this. Whatever. But don't sentence yourself to a hell of nonexistence because you're afraid of a hell of fire which you don't really believe in to start with. Just don't believe in a hell of fire, and strongly believe ummmm... that you can take it with you. That your possessions go with you in the afterlife, and you get to be surrounded by your house or something like that.

Look, I don't care. But I can't think of anything more horrifying than suddenly getting swallowed up by nothingness. To get an idea of how terrible this is, ask someone (me) how has struggled with depression their whole life if suddenly leaving all existence behind is preferable to dealing with pain and depression. Guess the answer. If there is not life after death, I will build one over that idea.

(The problem being that I'm indecisive and cannot keep a fixed idea in my head)

Continued from post # 7,214,185.

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ‘The Son Of Man,’ who revealed to humanity, (as was recorded by His prophet Moses,) the story and the order of Creation, from when our world was formless and void, having neither shape or mass, but a seething liquid-like plasma of superhot electromagnetic energy, the quantum of which was photons, which have zero mass and no electric charge, but which carry angular and linear momentum, then the creation of the first light from the gigantic first generation stars, followed by the division of the waters below from the waters above from which our Solar System was formed, then the beginnings of life through evolution by design, on this particular planet.

First were the microscopic aquatic plant life, of which some evolved into aquatic creatures, then insects which took to the air, and amphibians, then reptiles and flying creatures, and later on, all wild and domestic critters, etc.

It was ‘The Son of man’ the Most-High in the creation, who exists in a higher time dimension, that the story of creation was told to our primitive ancestors in its most basic form, knowing that the creation story would evolve with the evolution of the mind of man.

For the Word of God can be likened to a star that’s being ever brightened
By the mind of man reaching ever higher, but those who deviate, they’re liars
In God’s word, man’s mind can grow but those outside, they’re like the snow
That settles on the desert sand and will melt away before ‘I AM.’ ……. The Anointed.

This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the (heavens, and the earth) were formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, this event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither constant shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

But there was momentum (God’s active force, which was moving on the face of the waters, or liquid-like plasma) within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not physical particles at all, as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum, and are generally regarded as energy wave particles from which all seemingly physical objects are created.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles.

As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors] from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit, in which massive nuclear reactors the heavier elements were created.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes.’

Was the earth created before the creation of our minor sun, as is revealed in the Bible? And did life begin to evolve on earth before our sun burst into life? And could the complexity of life as seen on the earth today, have evolved over the comparatively short period of a mere 4.6 billion years from the day when the earth was created?

To be continued.

I'm sorry, but the above appears to just be arguing for the sake of arguing - you had a literal example...it was pointed out how poor it was...and now you want to change it to a spiritual metaphor. Well, despite the apparent argumentative change ... in answer to your question, how would I know if the person was falling off a spiritual cliff?:

- if the person raises their belief in conversation, I do not need to have an actual issue to have a conversation. We can talk about our differences. To be clear, I do not take responsibility for other peoples beliefs / perspectives, but I am happy to share thoughts and maybe influence their beliefs/perspectives.

- if the person raises it to try and 'convert' me in such a circumstance, then my qualifier 'so long as they aren't trying to tell others they are right' kicks in...

ie. it's a pointless question, because the only way I know they are on a spiritual cliff is through the person saying so...and either way allows conversation. People don't have to have an actual issue with something to discuss their thoughts on it.

But as you raised the concept of a spiritual cliff - it is my experience that many people don't know what a spiritual cliff is, outside of their own religious version of what a spiritual cliff is. So I would ask:
- what does a spiritual cliff entail?
- if they were a different religion? From your perspective - what would be an example of them reaching a spiritual cliff?

Continued from post #7,214,218.

Was the earth created before our minor sun, as is revealed in the Bible? And did life begin to evolve on earth before our sun burst into life? And could the complexity of life as seen on the earth today, have evolved over the comparatively short period of a mere 4.6 billion years from the day when the earth was created?

According to the best theory we have today as to the origin of this generation of the universe, it was some 14 billion years ago, that an immense explosion, known as the Big Bang, spewed out massive amounts of liquid like electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees, creating a rapidly expanding universe.

Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, would be created.

As said previously, bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed. Those first gigantic stars, in which the heavier elements were created, from which the galaxies would later be created and which massive stars would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space, leaving only the singularity of origin from which the next generation of the universe would be born.

The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first generation massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.

Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heavier elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form.

Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

PROTO-HUMANS WERE NOT HUMANS AND THE PROTO-SUN, WAS NOT YET OUR SUN.

Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun.

Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

To be continued.

Continued from previous post.

According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:
"And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

Unlike the orbits of the planets and the Kuiper Belt, which are pretty flat like a disk, the Oort Cloud is a spherical shell surrounding everything in our solar system. It's like a bubble with a thick shell. The Oort Cloud is made up of icy pieces of space debris.

"And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above and around us.

Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the actual sun came into existence (As revealed in the scriptures thousands of years ago) when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun” as is recorded in the Bible? And can life exist without actual sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved around the extremely hot and noxious gas vents over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate. This subject will be discussed at a later stage.

To be continued.

Maybe I’m inferring too much by your participation here. I was assuming you had a spiritual belief system. If that were the case, you would already know what a spiritual cliff was in it.

My question was not addressed to any particular belief/religion. It is only logical that just out of human kindness you would not want anyone to make such an important mistake. Again, assuming you believe you are right in your beliefs. And if you don’t think you are right, why hold your belief?

FWIW, I have fallen off many spiritual cliffs.
And I never argue for the sake of arguing.

Ugh, I have taken time to answer your questions even though your questions had glaring flaws, and in return - you completely avoid the one set of questions I ask you?

As an FYI, I have what many would define as spiritual beliefs, plus I did belong for 2 decades to a church. I ask because once you try and define sprituality, and start talking about it in objective terms, it becomes much more difficult to pin down. I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet that can't also be defined in mundane terms (eg. a exploration of who God is through understanding of the inner workings of ones mind - can be also said as understanding ones' self and their place in the world though deep introspection in combination with the teachings of the Bible. That of course, is only one example)... but purely mundane terms eventually run into problems

As just some examples from the internet - the below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

https://au.reachout.com/articles/what-is-spirituality

There is both a spiritual version, and a mundane version. I am familiar with both, but tend to not fully agree with either (that would take longer to explain).

And many people confuse moral cliffs with spiritual cliffs.

So asking you what you defined as a spiritual cliff (and if you defined it in religious terms, what you would define as a spiritual cliff for a person of another religion) was a valid question to ask you.

I didn’t recognize that as a question you asked. I was trying to keep it generic so as to get to the general principle involved rather than specific spiritual belief.

That principle being, Do you try to warn another about that cliff (or pull them out of the pit fallen into) or do you let them be because they don’t see it as a hazard or because they might be offended by your questioning of their POV.

But fair enough, I don’t mind answering your question.

Perhaps the highest cliff I fell off was the belief that 'family' was the most important spiritual value one could have. I didn’t just stumble over the edge, I went running full speed over it. Why wouldn’t I; it is preached by both society and religion. It’s supposed to be both morally and spiritually 'good'.

Another was my previous view that questioning another’s beliefs was impolite and never the right thing to do.

Re: Spiritual cliff


If what you mean is 'the failure to do that', that’s a damn fine example.

Thank you for your example. I personally wouldn't have defined that as a spiritual cliff - I would have described the family value as a stepping stone, as it is a major source of understanding our connection to other human beings, and a source that can help us understand ourselves - who we are as a person.

Not questioning your own beliefs is a cliff, just as is not including/finding a place for all known variables in your beliefs.

For others - we all have a journey to undertake. Some are further along than others, and I personally don't think it is for us to judge another if we are further along than them - everyone has their own journey. That journey is influenced by the people around them, but in the end, only the individual can make the decision as to who they will be.

Those are my general views on such things. There are of course, variations in specific situations.

That was my own version. I don't recall it ever being said to me (though maybe it was at some stage). But also, I found that any version I came up with, I could describe in less 'spiritual' (as in religiously spiritual) terms .

Another good one.

And I don’t mean that there is anything 'wrong' with 'family', it can be a great blessing, as long as you don’t make an idol or 'God' of it as I did. I think that is what religions like the Mormons and JW tend to do even though all I’ve personally met were kind people. It’s what I think Jesus was driving at when he said 'If you do not hate Mother, son, wife, etc. (ie, family) you are not worthy of me.' He used hyperbole a lot.

Yeah, I have a good family too, but they're also a mess in other ways. I had a job working as a janitor. Then one day while I was on a shift, my dad hurt himself while chopping wood. They thought originally it was a heart attack (but it was just overexertion). I resolved not to have a job that pulled me a great distance from the people I loved.

This isn't to say that you should put your family first at all times. But if something is dragging you away from what matters most to you, detach yourself from that.

Jesus said this, because his own family would have been a Jewish family. His father would have been addicted to his trade but mostly cool. His mother gets all this great rep as a "blessed virgin" by the Catholics, but in actuality she was a neurotic Jewish mom. We see her horn in while Jesus is doing his ministry ( "Your mother and brother want to talk to you"), and Jesus repeatedly seems bothered by her actions calling her "woman" instead of "Mother". I'm sure he endured endless nagging to find a nice Jewish wife, to get a real job and stop wasting time traveling and healing the sick, to visit more often. Ultimately, according to the tradition, Mary does become a follower, but in the mean time she was pretty much an example for why Jewish men should hate father and mother. I wasn't so much the idolatry thing as it was the idea that if you always did what momma dearest wanted, you'd find what you wanted to do with your life completely messed up (all her nagging), married to a woman you hated (Mom and Yenta), and stuck in a job you loathed (probably the family business).