700 Inconsistencies in the Bible

@bulmabriefs144,

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But if something is dragging you away from what matters most to you, detach yourself from that.

I’d agree with you, but right now I have to watch more coverage of Will Smith smacking the **** out of Chris Rock at the Oscars.

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@Leadfoot,

So, what about now?

Or are you watching it again?

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@bulmabriefs144,

Noth'n else on Razz

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@Leadfoot,

Okay, well, in any case.

This thread talks about the inconsistencies in the Bible, but what is more interesting is the consistencies. I'm watching videos from Prince of Egypt and Joseph King of Dreams, and it seems they both involve a bush.
Joseph in prison planting a tree before Pharaoh calls him (they needed a filler song)
The Burning Bush

So does the section about Jesus and the fruitless fig tree.
https://sundayhomiliescom.wordpress.com/2022/03/16/the-burning-bush-and-the-fruitless-fig-tree%ef%bf%bc/

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@bulmabriefs144,

Brandon9000 asked:

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Based on what evidence do you choose the God explanation over the natural forces explanation?

I see the gods of A2K have canceled another theological thread so I’ll answer in this one.

Brandon, have you ever stopped to notice the obvious fact that outside of biological life, you (nor anyone else) has seen 'natural forces' do anything but decay into its lowest energy state. EVERYTHING (except biological life) goes from order to disorder.

So given this fact, by what evidence do you choose 'natural forces' over the intelligently designed theory?

Here again is my protein argument in case you want a more specific example of why 'natural forces' could not have possibly created biological life.

Quote:

Farmer said:
yeh, all it takes are astronomical numbers of incidents ovr astronomical timelines (like deeep time , or anything over a BILLION years or so), and its almost a given .

Leadfoot replied:

Just for the record, here's why I don’t believe it's 'almost a given'.

The simplest example that illustrates the basic problem of 'accidental life' is to understand what a protein is and how it is made. Search 'life of the cell' on YouTube for visual references to proteins. Without at least some grasp of proteins, a simple explanation is impossible. A protein in biology has little to do with the dietary term 'protein' so don’t think 'the stuff in meat'.

There are thousands of different types of proteins for doing different jobs in a cell. Anything that happens or gets done inside a cell is done either directly or indirectly by a protein. It is the most basic functional unit in a cell.

A protein is a molecular machine. I use the term 'machine' because of its interrelated combination of chemical, electrical and mechanical characteristics and the fact that it is very specific and functional.

A protein is made of amino acids. Amino acids are called the 'building blocks of life' for this reason. Making these 'building blocks' in the lab is as close to creating life as we have come, even though amino acids can potentially form naturally. This is why one theory of life emerging is called 'protein world' since it seems logical that the 'simpler' protein came before the far more complex cell.

There are hundreds of different amino acids and each one comes in right and left handed versions (mirror images). Proteins are made of only 20 of them and all are left handed. This creates a problem for 'naturally occurring' proteins because if you mix in any of the other amino acids, or even a single right handed one of the 20, the protein is broken and will not function. And there is no mechanism in nature to prevent such contamination. But we are not yet to the real reason why biological life had to be designed.

Each protein starts out as a very specifically ordered chain of amino acids between about 150 and 3500 long, depending on the protein. They do not function in this string form. In order to be functional, they must be 'folded' into a complex physical three dimensional shape, which is another barrier to 'natural' life forming. But we are still not at the crux of the problem.

Let’s say that in spite of the odds, the right order of only the correct amino acids does link up by chance. Let us further say that they accidentally fold into the correct functional configuration. If you are into math, the chances of that happening have been calculated at 1 in 10^77. For perspective, there are about 10^50 atoms in the entire planet of earth. But still, we are not at the bottom of the problem.

Remember that we are only talking about a protein so far. it takes hundreds to thousands of different proteins working in a coordinated fashion to make a single cell function. But for now let's ignore the mathematical improbability of that first protein and the hundreds of others needed.

You have probably noticed that I have not mentioned DNA yet. It is the nature of what DNA is that makes accidental life virtually impossible. Bill Gates compared DNA to a computer operating system, only DNA is far more complicated. It is the most complicated thing we know of and we have only begun to understand just how complex it is.

But it is NOT the complexity itself that explains why it had to be designed. It is the multiple hierarchical levels of symbolic representation in DNA that demands a design. DNA has a LANGUAGE with syntax, words, punctuation, definitions, etc.

Here is the breaking point. It is possible for a human mind to imagine something as complex as a protein forming as a result of naturally occurring chemical processes even if the odds are vanishingly small. Then multiply that by the thousands of protein types needed. Still you could say, well given enough time, multiple universes, etc. it could happen. It sounds desperate to me but You can’t say the odds are zero. I should add that even the 'evolution explains everything' crowd can’t defend this 'Protein World' scenario, so they usually default to something like 'RNA world' as a precursor to first living cell. RNA is basically half of a DNA strand.

But to accept that this happened by random chance you would have to believe the following:

By random linking up of nucleotides (the four molecules that are in DNA), a machine language containing the words, letters, syntax and punctuation necessary for defining all the needed proteins for 'life' came about. Notice that I said 'defining' the proteins, not the proteins themselves or even the amino acids needed to make a protein.

To over simplify, DNA is a ‘recipe', an ordered list of instructions and ingredients on how to build thousands of different proteins. DNA itself cannot do anything with these instructions. In order to be built, the DNA instructions have to be transferred to a Ribosome, which in turn is a very complex protein itself (hopefully you see the chicken and egg problem here).

The Ribosome reads the symbolic list of the recipe and begins gathering the required amino acids called for in the list. It assembles the amino acids into a string in the order specified in the DNA strand sent to it. (in the form of what’s called ‘messenger RNA')

After the amino acids are strung together, Some simpler proteins will spontaneously fold into their final three dimensional shape but most require yet other proteins to actively form them in the correct way. If they are not folded correctly they will not function and are often toxic.

Hopefully you followed that but to summarize, complex combinations of amino acids are possible given enough time and material. The odds are not what I would call possible but you can’t say that a protein by accident is impossible, in spite of its complexity.

What cannot be reasonably believed is that 'nature' took that first accidental protein and then invented a symbolic language (encoded in DNA) that was able to be read and executed by yet another different protein in order to make more proteins.

A protein by accident - maybe.

A symbolic language describing all the needed proteins for life and simultaneously a molecular machine that understands that language and able to build according to the instructions by accident? - Nope.

It is the symbolic nature of DNA's language that required 'design'.

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@Leadfoot,

I'd say, "Oh god, don't bring drama that closed another thread into this one," but I suppose it doesn't matter . I've also seen some threads only get temporarily closed.

My five cents on this, since you and Anointed have already piped up, is that I do not believe in a big crunch or cyclic universe. The tendency of the universe is one of decay, yet DESPITE this decay, expansion and diversification exists. But that doesn't happen on its own. If we leave a bike out, it rusts. But if we keep tools clean and sharp they suit us well for years. Likewise, the universe continues a pattern of expansion despite the prevailing condition of entropy. This can obly be because it is managed.

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@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

Likewise, the universe continues a pattern of expansion despite the prevailing condition of entropy.

Whether in the form of matter or energy, that ‘pattern of expansion' IS entropy. It’s going from order to disorder.

If it goes any other way, you can be sure something 'external' to the universe is at work.

I’m not sure why TA is convinced of a reversal of expansion. That used to be the scientific view as well. That went out the window when we determined it is not only not slowing down nor at the same speed, it is accelerating. They’re guessing due to 'dark energy'.

Maybe TA knows some theological prophecy I’m not aware of, that predicts such a happening.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I’m not sure why TA is convinced of a reversal of expansion.

Believing that the holy Scriptures is the inspired words of the Lord, I read in 2 Peter 3: 10; “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will disappear.”

Knowing that there is no mention in the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Old Testament, of the universe being destroyed by fire before completely vanishing, and knowing that Jesus and his disciples taught from the words of Righteous Enoch, which books were cherished by the early Christians right up until the fourth century, when under the ban of dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Jerome, Hilary and Augustine, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

On reading the book of Enoch the prophet, I see that he was carried to the end of this period of universal activity, where he witnessed the Heavens burn up and fall as massive columns of Fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss = BLACK HOLE, which the escorting angel described as the prison of all the stars and the hosts of heaven.

I then realised that it was from the words of righteous Enoch that Peter learned of the end of this particular generation of the universe, when all will be returned to the singularity of origin.

A Galactic Black Hole is a massive system so centrally condensed that the force of gravity prevents everything within it, even light from escaping. But how many Black Holes are out there in the boundlessness of the eternal cosmos? How much dark energy is hidden within those Black Holes? Nobody knows, science is still coming to grips with Galactic Black Holes, which are believed to be at the centre of all Spiral and elliptical galaxies, and Black Holes devour everything of lesser mass that comes in contact with them.

Although today, we have absolute proof that black Holes do exist, much information regarding them remains to be gathered, which future information will hopefully open many windows to shine light on this subject of Black Holes, wormholes, also called Einstein-Rosen bridges and White Holes.

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by a super Black hole, which has a mass of some three to four million suns, and if you think that’s a big black hole, consider this; “In December of 2019, astronomers announced the discovery of one of the biggest black holes ever measured in the nearby universe. That black hole is at the center of an elliptical galaxy in galaxy cluster Abel 85, and has been calculated to be 40 billion times the mass of our sun, which is equivalent to two-thirds the mass of the 100-billion stars in the Milky Way and is roughly the size of our entire solar system.”

Our Milky Way and the nearby Andromeda Galaxy, which are two spiral galaxies are on a collision course, and when these two spiral galaxies collide, they can merge and form an elliptical galaxy, which elliptical galaxies can collide and merge again to form an even larger elliptical galaxy. The central Black holes of those elliptical galaxies also merge and combine to make one massive Black Hole, and those Massive galaxies, which are called ‘core galaxies’ are believed to be the main attractive force at the center of galactic clusters, which clusters are being attracted to a super Duper gravitational anomaly within the Shapley Super Cluster, which is the largest concentration of galaxies in our nearby universe that forms a gravitational anomaly that is pulling itself together instead of expanding with the universe.

It is believed that pairs of spiral galaxies form elliptical galaxies, pairs of those elliptical galaxies form cored elliptical galaxies, and a pair of cored galaxies formed Holmberg 15A, and that this series of mergers also created the ultra-massive black hole in its center, a monster nearly as big as our solar system with the mass of around 40 billion suns.

When will this process end? Will there eventually end up being only one super galaxy orbiting an immeasurable monstrous Black Hole wherein the centre of which, will be crushed all our known universe into the singularity from which our universe began, where the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite? Are we looking at an eternal oscillating universe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor#:~:text=Great%20Attractor%201%20Location.%20The%20first%20indications%20of,4%20Laniakea%20Supercluster.%20...%205%20Vela%20Supercluster.%20

To be continued.

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@The Anointed,

Continued from previous post.

As stated previously, when the singularity of origin is torn asunder for the creation of this universe, electromagnetic energy is spewed out of a WHITE HOLE in the trillions and trillions of degrees, as this infinitely hot energy spread out, it cooled. One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other with the expansion of space.
But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which is believed to be the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

The Universe stayed dark, without any luminous sources, until gravity, condensed the mainly hydrogen, with helium, and the trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron, into the first stars. All stars, including these first- generation stars, act as chemical factories, synthesizing almost all of the elements that make up the world around us.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit, in which massive nuclear reactors the heavier elements were created.

When the original stars exploded as supernovae, and collapsed into a black hole, they spewed out much of the elements that those massive nuclear reactors had created, seeding the surrounding galactic gas cloud.

Subsequent generations of stars that formed in the surrounding Gas cloud, which were created from those elements, incorporated the elements that were created within them, and steadily increased the chemical abundances of their surroundings, which was the evolving Galaxy, that was anchored in space by the central Black Hole, around which, THE GALACTIC NEBULA had begun to revolve.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, our sun will eventually burn up all its lighter elements and move on to the heavier material and blow out as a Red Giant, when this happens, it will expand outward and get so large that the orbit of the earth will actually be inside the sun, and the earth’s crust will be melted into an ocean of lava.

Eventually, there will be nothing there to burn and all that will be left of our sun will be a compact White dwarf of carbon and oxygen about the size of today’s earth, and a thimble full of material from the White Dwarf would weigh anything up to a ton.

A neutron star is what is left over when a very heavy star explodes. This explosion is called a Supernova, the gravitational collapse of those bigger stars, create a fast spinning body no bigger than the earth, which is so dense that even a thimble full of their material, would weigh anything up to about 100 million tons.

Atoms have a certain weight, but the weight is almost all in the nucleus. The nucleus inside an atom is so small that if you made a model of an atom that was the size of a large house, the nucleus would still only be the size of a grain of salt. An atom, apart from its nucleus, is almost all space.

In a neutron star, all of the atoms have been crushed together so tightly by the force of gravity that their nuclei are touching. If you can imagine the amount of space needed for a billion large houses to occupy, then reduce that to the space needed to house a billion grains of salt, which still weigh almost the same as the billion houses, then you have some idea as to what a neutron star is. But unlike a Black Hole, rotating neutron stars do radiate pulses of energy and are also called ‘Pulsars.’ As a point of interest, in 2020 scientists witnessed two separate events only ten days apart of a black Hole devouring a neutron star.

As previously stated, according to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a regular Schwarzschild black hole, which is a non-rotating black hole as opposed to a rotating Kerr black hole. Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light, the mass within a black hole warps the fabric of space, as the internal mass increases by the objects falling into and being devoured by that gravitational anomaly, it begins to form a funnel like tunnel in space.

Any object going into a black hole would be ripped apart by the intense gravitational force inside the black hole and re-converted to the photons from which it was originally created.

In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr, calculated an exact solution for Einstein’s field equations representing a Kerr black hole. The special feature of a Kerr black hole is that it rotates. So far as scientists know, all objects in the universe rotate, including stars, so when the star collapses into a black hole, it’s likely that it too will rotate.

In Kerr’s solution, it’s actually possible for the electromagnetic energy from which this universe and all herein was created, the quantum of that energy, being photons, to travel through the rotating black hole and could come out of the white hole at the other side.

Those rotating black holes, which were created from the supernova and collapse of gigantic stars, are seen as swirling funnels, which are formed in the galaxies, much like the funnel in a Thunderstorm.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, I have no doubts that one day. During the coming thousand years of peace, new technology will develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done: ‘Beam me up Scotty?’

Just as no two humans have the same fingerprint and no two snowflakes are the same, each atom has its own unique signature (It’s wobble) and when atoms, each with their own unique signature are gathered together to form Molecules, the signature of each molecule is further enhanced, and of the molecular makeup of any human being, no two can be the same. Again (Beam me up scotty)

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@The Anointed,

Continued from previous post.

God is calling all creation back to himself, after which he will create for us a new heavens and a new earth, in other words; “A NEW UNIVERSE”.

Another universe may have preceded ours study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.

Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking. To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics.

These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways. Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar’s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete “atomic” structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed. In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional “threads.” The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it’s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research “Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time.” The universe “may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history,” he added. Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it’s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that’s not known, he added. Steinhardt‘s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics. Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions.

Our zone, called a braneworld [the word comes from its similarity to a sort of membrane] could periodically bounce into another parallel braneworld. Such an event might look to us, stuck in a few dimensions as we are, as a Big Bang. “I don’t know if Ashetkar’s case translates into a bounce between braneworlds like we are describing,” Steinhardt wrote. But by his estimate, this cataclysm won’t take place for another roughly 300 billion years—so there is hopefully plenty of time to answer the question.

Just as the Big Bang theory has been evolving over the years and is continuing to evolve as new data becomes available, these big Crunch theories that are just beginning to emerge are still in their infancy.

Because three-dimensional time as we know it, does not exist prior to the Big Bang: from the return of the universe to the supposedly infinitely hot, infinitely dense and infinitesimally small singularity of origin to the next Big Bang when three dimensional space and time would begin again, it would appear that no time had elapsed, thus [As I believe] the erroneous Big Bounce theory.

According to the German theoretical physicist, Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck: One Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to one Planck length.

The Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to the Planck length. This is the 'quantum of time', the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-43 seconds. No smaller division of time has any meaning. Within the framework of the laws of physics as we understand them today, we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-43 seconds.

A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe, from which singularity our eternal oscillating and ever evolving universe is resurrected to continue on in that everlasting process.

If our generation of the universe originated from a Singularity, then the previous generation must have ended as that singularity, and although 10-43 seconds is the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning to our scientific teams, and no smaller division of time has any meaning, this does not mean that ‘Time, Space and momentum, do not continue beyond Planck’s ‘Quantum of time’.

The Planck length is a ‘SPACE’, that is crossed by the ‘MOMENTUM’ of a photon travelling at the speed of light, in a Planck ‘TIME’. So, beyond Planck’s ‘Quantum of time’, there is a space that is crossed in time and the Big Crunch continues toward the Singularity in which, space, time and momentum ‘DO NOT EXIST’.

Science cannot determine if a Planck space can continue to be halved or how many times it could be halved, nor can they determine the time taken to cross each probable division of that Planck ‘SPACE’, and all though the speed=’MOMENTUM,’ may remain the same, relative to each decreasing ‘SPACE’ the photon must cross. the momentum would appear to double as ‘TIME’ is halved, until “BANG”, there is no more SPACE in which to move, and no more 'TIME', only the singularity of the origin of the next ‘BIG BANG” and expanding universe.

IMO, Such an event might look to Ashtekar’s group, as a Big Bounce. The contracting universe hits the Planck ‘Quantum of time’, then after a time that no science can determine, the next generation of the universe in the event we know as ‘THE BIG BANG’, emerges from the scientifically unknown, and is seen as if no time had elapsed from the moment the condensing universe hit the PLANCK time quantum to the moment it was seen to begin expanding once again.

Perhaps now, leadfoot may have some idea why TA is convinced of a reversal of expansion, IOW the scientific theory of the Big Crunch, or the eternal oscillating universe.

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@Leadfoot,

Actually entropy is collapse.

It's the equivalent of filling a hot air balloon with a superhuman set of lungs, only to get distracted and stop blowing. I'll use that analogy even though it carries with it the notion that eventually the balloon pops. We're basically saying once the balloon is fully blown up, we use it to ride instead.

No blowing = collapse (entropy)
Doing it wrong = heat death as the universe "pops" (entropy)

Bur since we are assuming a sentient eternal being in charge, this isn't just a process that continues expanding or contracts heedless of common sense. This is a process that gradually reaches homeostasis. Where the universe becomes the right size. Also, do you see more disorder in the system? Because I see stars, planets, moons and such well beyond our system. There are regions where there is open space, but there are probly other galaxies. And we haven't reached the end of exploration.

It's like if you live in a city in Arizona, and have never taken geography classes. Around Phoenix, there is also Mesa, Prescott, Globe, and Florence, then things peter out in the circle, and barely any large towns are nearby. Having no knowledge of geography, you don't known about Houston and Austin, nor LA and San Francisco, nor Chicago or New York. You have no map and only are using a stagecoach to explore around. Your perspective is centered around Arizona. Our perspective is mostly around the Milky Way galaxy. We have no idea if there are other "cities" out there, as we are using the astronomical equivalent of a stage coach.

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@bulmabriefs144,

If General relativity demands that a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe, then it could be and is argued, that if the singularity from which this Three Dimensional universe is said to have been created, existed at the core of a Black Hole, it is obvious to anyone who believes that this is the first and only period of three dimensional universal activity, that the Black Hole in which the ‘SINGULARITY’ existed from which this supposed one and only three Dimensional Universe was created, had to have originated from a different universe that existed within a different dimension?

There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

One of which, is a theory put forward by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, which he believes, could explain the singularity within a Super massive Black Hole, from which singularity our ‘Three Dimensional’ Universe was born.

Niayesh Afshordi, proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a “bulk universe” that has four dimensions and that the “Bulk Universe” has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three-dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, (As a Singularity) like in our universe, only in four-dimension. The four-dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional “Event Horizon,” the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three-dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four-dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four-dimensional black hole, then blows apart, (THE BIG BANG) with the leftover material forming a three-dimensional membrane surrounding a ‘Three Dimensional’ event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a Super massive fourth dimensional black hole, in which the singularity that is said to have been the origin of our three dimensional universe, had been crushed. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

As attractive as Niayesh Afshordi’s theory is, I will continue to believe in the eternal oscillating universe, which is the evolution of the eternal energy that has neither beginning or end, and that each stage of its activity is a separate generation, and each generation of its eternal evolution, occupies its own position in Space-Time.

As the scriptures state that God gathers all creation back to himself, before creating for us a new heavens and a new earth, (A new universe) I will continue to believe, that this entire universe, which began as a ‘singularity,’ will burn up and fall as fire into the Great Abyss, which is created by the black holes within the condensing Galaxies devouring each other, where all will be crushed back into the singularity from which it was created, only to be blasted out and resurrected to continue on in its eternal process of evolution.

It is written in the Pseudepigrapha of the OT in English, that when Adam died God said to him; "Dust thou art and to dust you must return, but I promise you, that when the resurrection comes around again, I will raise you and every one of your seed."

IMO, The ever repeating 'RESURRECTION', is seen as; "A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it."

The old world dies in the event we call the 'BIG CRUNCH', the new generation arises with all the information of the previous generations in the event we call the 'BIG BANG'.

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@The Anointed,

And Hawking states a theoretical energy within black holes.

Yet scientists have never been able to conclude black holes actually exist, they are a theoretical workaround popularized by films and books.

So Hawking's energy is a theory of a theory. AKA bullshit.

There was a singularity (what we call God) in the beginning of the universe, and we can know this for certain because everything came from a source. If there is no source of matter, there is no matter. This means God is self-evident.
What is not self-evident is what happens to stars, since it is difficult to take a video from light years away. So there is a great deal of smoke and mirrors in the scientific world. Things that we claim to have concluded as fact, which is far from proven in any sense of finality. Do stars go supernova? Do they become black holes? Hell, I have heard other flat Earthers believe that there isn't actually anything outside of Earth, and that "stars" are simply openings in the sky (or something).

Sometimes the wisest thing is to say, "I believe this about the universe, but I cannot know." That scientists claim to know means they lack true wisdom.

If God created this world, it does not necessarily need time. I think time is a figment of our imaginations, and people and things die because they think they ought to. End times are an unhelpful mindset. They breed this sort of people.

https://islamicanews.com/files/2014/06/signs-end.jpg

Are these people calm? Sane? Filled with the peace of God?
Or do they appear to be demon possessed? I think you know the answer as well as I do.

Maybe the universe ends, maybe it doesn't but this is the message that God's angels give us.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/17/f0/79/17f07996f5e72263cd293b72ba19f384--quill-yeshua-jesus.jpg

Do not be afraid.

Do not be afraid.

Btw, they also say that to Mary, if I remember correctly.
Why then do end times prophecies tell us the opposite? It is because they are not from God's angels, but from demons.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

Both you and bulma see the end of this universe in terms of the 'natural' processes working themselves out in time. You may be right, I do not know the time scale on which the 'end' will come, even if the 'Big Crunch' and eternal oscillation is the universes' destiny. But I don’t see the appeal of 'reincarnation', even on that scale.

But as long as we are sharing our opinions of the 'life' of the universe I might as well give mine.

I understand a lot (but not all) of the physics but my ‘spiritual understanding' of 'the end' is an actual end of this universe. The physical universe was said to be spoken into existence and I assume it will end the same way. Exactly how that happens is irrelevant . I want to understand this universe in terms of purpose, not physics.

As grand and expansive as it is, this universe is for temporary use. I don’t see any need for it after it has served its purpose. All God would have to do is alter any one of the fundamental atomic constants. If for example the nuclear strong force were changed by even the tiniest amount, the elements would melt with fervent heat just like the prophecy says they will. But I think it is pointless to speculate on the exact mechanism God will use.

But TA, I have to ask, do you see the universe progressing once again in the same way after the next Big Crunch? I have to confess, that is radically different than the absolute linear progression of God's plan as it seems to be described in the Bible.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Well, I see Christ as eternally present in this universe. But our lives are not eternal, so we also meet Christ when we die for real.

I believe that Satan and evil men are distracting us from the fact that Jesus actually rules this world by pretending they are. Satan accuses God and Jesus of doing nothing, but actually the rule of Jesus (unlike as depicted in Revelation) is not an iron rod. But rather it is much like in Kings (or was it Samuel?) where the people basically want a ruler, and God agrees to give them what they want. Maybe one day, they'll get sick of that, and there will be an end to things. Maybe not, but in the mean time, those who can see the hand of God in this world know who is really in charge, and who needs permission.

As to reincarnation, it's an appealing idea, but most of the religions that have it treat it like a bad thing. That is, you reincarnate until the lessons of life end. So eventually, even endings end, because you get enlightened or whatever and reach a state where you are kinda part of the divine (and there isn't this cycle of beginnings and endings). Different religions depict this different ways.

2 Replies

@bulmabriefs144,

You theology is truly a smorgasbord of religion. There’s something from and for everybody.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

It's delicious!

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/buffet-table-chinese-food-options-lunch-time-selection-san-francisco-ca-traditional-dim-sum-items-104376951.jpg

Taste and see.

0 Replies

@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

Satan accuses God and Jesus of doing nothing, but actually the rule of Jesus...

... much like in Kings...where the people basically want a ruler, and God agrees to give them what they want...

...those who can see the hand of God in this world know who is really in charge

In your theology - if God is really in charge only because people want him to be in charge, then:

- before before Christianity, when only the Jews believed in God...and the entirety of the rest of the world didn't know about him, and therefore couldn't actually want him in charge, so he shouldn't have been in charge? How does your theology account for this?

- what about currently, those that don't want him in charge?

- and if it is a popular vote - is it the Muslim God or the Christian God in charge? (if you define them by character traits rather than heredity, then they are two different Gods. If one of the religions simply has it wrong, then taking their vote into account would be taking the vote under false pretenses, as each religion would want the God that their beliefs assign certain character traits to)

- if he is King only because people want a King....then God giving the people want they want...wouldn't that mean if most people want the person in charge to do something, then he should be doing something, because he gives them what they want?

...and if he is In Charge of 5-6 Billion people, then isn't he quite literally, King of this World? And therefore (as either King, or being In Charge) responsible for it?

My observations, if there is a God, is that God has a policy of non-interference. I've no personal issue with that. It's only once you believe he should interfere that people start tying themselves up in knots. Non-interference is a much more believable viewpoint. And to other aspects religion assigns - I can't even see an all powerful God needing or wanting worship. Respect, acknowledgement, etc sure. Worship - never made sense to me, even as a teenager.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

You may be right, I do not know the time scale on which the 'end' will come, even if the 'Big Crunch' and eternal oscillation is the universes' destiny.

No one knows the time scale on which the 'end' will come. But the end of this universal body will come as surely as the end of your temporary body will come.

No two scientific groups can tell us when this universal body will end or how it will end or even if it will ever end, and according to the scriptures [Mark 13” 32] "No one knows when that day or hour will come —not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father.”

Quote:

The physical universe was said to be spoken into existence and I assume it will end the same way.

According to the creation story as revealed in Genesis, it was in the sixth generation of the universe, that the observer, who was not actually creating anything, but rather, calling into existence the sleeping LOGOS, which is translated in Greek as “WORD.’

The root to the word “BRAHMAN” originally meant “SPEECH”, much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD.

Shabda Brahman From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Shabda Brahman or Sabda-brahman or Nada brahmin means transcendental sound (Shatapatha Brahmana III.12.48) or sound vibration (Shatpatha Brahmana Vi.16.51) or the transcendental sound of the Vedas (Shatpatha Brahmana Xi.21.36) or of Vedic scriptures (Shatpatha Brahmana X.20.43).

The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc, and has hymns in praise of "SPEECH AS THE CREATOR" and as the final abode of Brahman. Time is the creative power of Shabda Brahman.

In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vac.' Vac means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vac has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as ‘A THOUGHT,’ and not as the spoken word or speech.

The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the eternal mind (THE GREAT THOUGHT) which are to be expressed.

Just as our words are the audible expression of the invisible mind=spirit that is we, the visible universe is the word=expression of the invisible ‘GREAT THOUGHT.’

“Ptah, is an Egyptian creator god who existed before all other things and, by his will, ‘THOUGHT’ the world into existence. It was first conceived by ‘Thought’, and realized by the Word:”. . . . . . . . . . The Logos=Word: Brahman=Speech.

The word and speech are the same, Logos=Word and Brahman=Speech are one and the same Creator God, and both should be seen as ‘The essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return at the close of each period of universal activity.

Quote:

As grand and expansive as it is, this universe is for temporary use. I don’t see any need for it after it has served its purpose.

As complex and intricate as the design is from which your body was created, it was created for a temporary use only, and after it has served its purpose, and the spirit=mind has developed within it, from the information taken in through the senses of that body, there is no more need for that particular body.

1 Corinthians 15: 46; “It is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.”--------- Do you fully comprehend what has been said there? Once the body has developed a supreme personality, or Spiritual Godhead to that physical body, it has served its purpose, and another spiritual Son of God has been born, and nothing physical can enter the kingdom of God.

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit.

I am a triad being consisting of Body, Soul, and Spirit. The body is created from the universal elements and must return to the elements from which it is created. The Soul is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universe activating all within, and like the elements, the soul must also return to the ‘GREAT THOUGHT’ which is made manifest as this visible universe.

While the Spirit is the invisible mind which is the ‘I Am,’ that is imprinted upon the eternal universal Soul, which Soul must return to the ‘GREAT THOUGHT,’ with or without the ‘I Am,’ that is either accepted into the GREAT THOUGHT, or rejected, and if rejected, it is separated from the eternal Soul and ceases to exist.

This body that you see It isn’t really me
It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed
For I am spirit, I am mind
And it’s the only place you’ll find
‘Who I Am’ until the day I’m finally born
For I will not be free, until this body that you see
Has returned to the earth from whence it came
It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed
To carry on in life’s eternal game. …. The Anointed.

The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul, [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that gathering of parental spirits, which is the evolving ‘SON OF MAN,’ dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN] who stands on the highest and final rung of the ladder of evolution in this period of universal activity.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

Then of the Thee in Me who works behind The veil,
I lifted up my hands to find A lamp amid the Darkness;
and I heard, As from Without----
“The Me within Thee is blind.”----- By Omar Khayyam.

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body of “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU, the mind or spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force or soul, which returns to ‘THE GREAT THOUGHT,’ [The collective consciousness of all that exists] from which it will be resurrected in this cycle, or the next cycle of universal activity, unless of course, it is then divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

To be continued.

0 Replies

@vikorr,

Quote:

In your theology - if God is really in charge only because people want him to be in charge

"In charge" is a loaded word. I want you to think of God (and by extension his human representative, Jesus) as an anarchist.

If we are assuming this... does the depiction of God in Revelation as ruling with an iron fist and horribly punishing people who don't follow stupid rules is not consistent with this behavior. At all.

I want you to assume that someone you know is Jesus. Would that person really condemn you to destruction (if "yes", maybe work on your self-esteem)? You cannot be that bad a person. In fact, rather than being at odds with this person, I want you to assume a best friend. Not only does this friend love you too much to try to force you to do something that they know will make you unhappy (taking the risk that going off and doing something stupid might make you unhappy anyway), but they love you enough that if you get in trouble, they would rather die than see you hurt. In fact, it might be more helpful to think of this as a lover.

When we're talking about it, think of it like this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. God wants the Jews to kinda just have a weird system where they kinda do what they see what they think God wants of them, and do it.
2. The Book of Judges is propaganda. "There was no king in those days, and everyone did what we right in their own eyes." Basically painting this sort of system as some kind of bad thing. As long as people have self-discipline, they can do what God seems to be saying to them. No worries.
3. Instead, the Jews want to be governed.
4. God tells them what this is like:

Quote:

11 If you have a king, this is how he will treat you. He will force your sons to join his army. Some of them will ride in his chariots, some will serve in the cavalry, and others will run ahead of his own chariot. 12 Some of them will be officers in charge of 1,000 soldiers, and others will be in charge of 50. Still others will have to farm the king's land and harvest his crops, or make weapons and parts for his chariots. 13 Your daughters will have to make perfume or do his cooking and baking.
14 The king will take your best fields, as well as your vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his own officials. 15 He will also take a tenth of your grain and grapes and give it to his officers and officials.
16 The king will take your slaves and your best young men and your donkeys and make them do his work. 17 He will also take a tenth of your sheep and goats. You will become the king's slaves, 18 and you will finally cry out for the Lord to save you from the king you wanted. But the Lord won't answer your prayers.

5. The Jews are like, "Nope nope, we want a tyrant to govern us. Like all the other lands."
6. You see, disobedience to God isn't freedom. It's slavery. Pursuing freedom is obedience to God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think the Muslim god epitomizes disobedience to God. Wear your headscarf. Pray five times a day. Give alms. Follow this rule, follow that. Be a good good son, grow your beard out and fight the enemies of Islam. Be a good daughter, don't go outdoors without a hijab and without being accompanied by a man (even if that man is about 6 years old, he's got more right to be outside than you), obey your husband even when he slaps you around or marries another woman.

In Christianity, while you are expected to tithe, this is not a hard expectation. You do not get banished from the church if you don't pay up. You don't have to circumcise your ummm junk. You don't have to worry about foods you are allowed to eat or clothes that are permitted to wear.

The Muslim god is "in charge". The God that created the heavens and the Earth is not. Because any deity worth our worship wouldn't behave like a pathetic tyrant. Does this answer your question?

Now, may you contend that no deity is worth your worship, that's fine too. But in this case, you should figure out what it is you will follow and go after that. With all of your heart.

1 Reply

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