ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:08 pm
@maxdancona,
Yes, stuff you said annoyed me.
You can probably figure it out.












beit
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:27 pm
@ossobuco,
No Osso, I can't figure it out. You gave two reasons (biology and women in science), both of which were factually incorrect. I said the exact opposite of what you accused me of saying. You have yet to provide a single example to back up your accusations. I don't have a clue about why you are so angry.

My point is that all fields of science from biology to software engineering to theoretical physics should be open and accessible to women. Currently biology is the only scientific field that is attracting significant numbers of women. I can kind of understand why this could be seen as a slight on biology if you don't look at the context... but it wasn't.

I don't think segregated science is a good thing in either of the two cases we have discussed. I don't think that women should be directed toward certain fields and away from others. And, I don't think that separate science and engineering clubs for girls are helpful.

It would be helpful if you could explain where you disagree... maybe without the name calling.


ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:29 pm
@maxdancona,
That is so nice of you.

You mentioned biology first. So nice of you, isn't that cute of you to do that, you who slammed women re placed in that interest, not real science.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:43 pm
@ossobuco,
I did not "slam women". You can go back and read it again.

It would be nice to have a rational discussion without the name calling.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:47 pm
@ossobuco,
Is the biology piece the only thing that you are upset about?

I would like to hear opinion on my point about segregated science. Do you segregated science is a good thing?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Demeaning biology is not a good thing either. Not cute.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 08:04 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is a topic I have been thinking a lot about recently. I am raising a very smart preteen daughter who enjoys programming in Java. And, I work as a software engineer. This is a very male dominated field where we are having active discussions about how to be more welcoming to women.

My daughter was recruited into a group called "Science Club for Girls". As a father and as an engineer I hate it. First of all, she isn't being challenged to learn real science (i.e. developing the skills that are needed to succeed). They are doing science crafts focused around biology. Biology is the one scientific field where there are more women than men. Shunting off all the women scientists is a problem because it is the least mathematical and technical field... this just strengthens the traditional gender stereotypes.

For the record, my daughter likes the club because her friends are there... and I support her choice. I do have an ongoing discussion with her about what it means to be an engineer. It is not easy being my daughter. But at home she tinkers with and solders electronic circuits and is writing a web application in Java... for more important from a science and engineering perspective.

So now to answer the question.... And I have some expertise in this; currently I am an engineer and I have a hard science degree (in Physics).

There are a few traditionally "male" skills that are absolutely needed to excel in science or engineering.

1) The ability to argue. Science is about arguing facts. You present your hypothesis and then other people attack it. That is the way science works. You also need to look at other hypotheses and attack them. And this argument has to be based on facts... without taking it personally or worrying about feelings. This is how great scientists arrive at the successful theories or great engineers arrive at the correct designs.

2) An obsession with mathematics or design. Successful engineers or scientists fixate on an idea to the exclusion of pretty much anything else. All of my peers have slept in an office, or have "forgotten" social engagements or have even neglected personal hygiene. For the best engineers, mathematics is not a subject in school or a career skill, it is an obsession... it gives us pleasure.

3) A love of tinkering. I was reading research about the different ways that boys and girls use computers. Boys are much more likely to see computers as a toy... and engineers more so. We don't see technology as a tool, we see it as something to take apart... to master, sometimes to destroy (it is a common experience for engineers to have taken apart appliances in our childhood).

I could probably come up with more with more thought.... but these things are the reason that really good engineers are really good. Of course there are girls who already have these traits, but it is not possible to truly be a great engineer or scientist without them.

I read some blogs about what we need to do to make engineering more appealing to women. The suggestions make me laugh (or choke or laugh while choking). They include focusing on "cleanliness" and getting rid of crazy schedules or long arguments. These are the very things that make engineering successful... you really can't do this.

There are some things that we can and should do to make engineering and science more welcoming. Abuse and crass joking are problems and aren't at all necessary for the crazy creative process.

But yes, the women who really succeed in science and technology can strongly argue their points based on facts, have a mastery and love of math, and an obsession that drives them beyond what is normal. In this way they aren't any different then the men.

I don't see that as acting "like one of the lads". I see this as acting like an engineer (or scientist). This is deeply productive, creative and satisfying... but it isn't for everyone. I hope that more women will decide to do this.



Here is what I wrote again. The quote in question is "Shunting off all the women scientists is a problem because it is the least mathematical and technical field... this just strengthens the traditional gender stereotypes". I can kind of understand that this quote might be seen as upsetting to a biologist... but not really.

Maybe in hindsight I would rewrite that (although I do not think it is factually incorrect).

But the important point is that I want my daughter to have the opportunity to enter any field of science or engineering that she chooses. And, I am not worried about this.

My daughter is programming a web page. She works with and solders electronic circuits. She plays in a video game league. None of these activities require gender segregation. She does them because she wants to (the fact that she sees her engineer dad enjoying these things probably doesn't hurt).

Gender doesn't matter to her as far as what she likes to do. I am very proud of this. Right now she says she wants to be a software engineer and I support this. (Of course, I will support her even if she chooses to become a biologist Wink ).

The main point I am making is that gender segregation is not helpful when it comes to raising a very smart, and technically inclined daughter.
0 Replies
 
ashah13
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2016 04:55 pm
I can only speak from what I've experienced, and from what I've heard from the women working in science and technology-driven fields. I do believe that if a women acts traditionally feminine, she is less likely to be respected if she is working as a scientist or even studying science. While it may not be represented in the majority, there are some female scientists who take their work extremely seriously, yet still like wearing make up, and shopping, painting their nails, and doing other hyper-feminine activities. If you work in science and happen to enjoy any number of these activities, people, both men and women, may take you less seriously. That is in no way a reflection or a fault of the women, but completely the fault of the people who are judging her. Because of this, I do think that women who succeed in science-oriented fields tend to display qualities that are thought of as traditionally masculine, even though they should not be thought of that way. I completely agree with what Maxdancona stated above, all those qualities are what makes a person good at their field. It is just unfortunate that so many people associate those qualities more with men than with women.
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 08:23 am
@maxdancona,
all those skills and attitudes are considered in a woman as behaving the men´s way cause they violently crush with the traditional values women were educated in: a woman is supposed to put her children first, a woman should devoted herself to her family, she is taught to be sensitive to other´s feelings and not having a feisty and competitive personality.... she would be taught to bring it to herself if her husband leaves her because she working hard and being the one missing birthdays or futbol matches would made her seen as careless mother or one that doesn´t love their children as she should
encourage your girl to defy your opinion as a game on your shared spare time, tell her she´ll need somebody at her side to support her if her jobs turns out to be very demanding as she should support her partner if same happens to them, tell her not being with her children on every special moment doesn´t mean less of her as a mother.... summing it up raise her to believe she's equal to any men and you´ll do much more good to the real feminism than other ones publicly manifestating for it. the main factor to get to an equal society it´s women to see themselves as equals, men would bend to the idea sooner than later.... after all the main responsible of machismo being perpetuated for centuries are the women raising their kids to believe machismo is the right thing. Wellcome to the small club of feminist fathers... mine is one... you can imagine how much you do for the women in the world
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 08:59 am
@Leadfoot,
Same. Sport talking is dumb talking but so is gossip and shop talking...anyways rhis is beyound gender...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 09:03 am
@neologist,
Touche !
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 09:09 am
@ossobuco,
Quantum Biology an emergent science is the new King in town in Science drawing serious attention on hardcore theorethical physicisits. So what kind of biology we talking about ? Taxonomy and taking care of baby Pandas on zoos ? Biology has loads of fields. Leadfoot has a point that if a man wants to learn stiching and cloth design he better learn women talk...
It just happens that man complain less about gender inequality.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 09:15 am
@ashah13,
Same will happen with a man with man futil hobbies...
Honestly women caring to much with looking attractive doesn't mingle well with science in the same way holligons don't...its a pseudo gender debate.
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 09:18 am
@maxdancona,
you are not be the impersonating of the masculinity perfect men but you are males. imagine yourselves sharing the class with a delicate a very feminine girl, all curves and eyes for you all.... would you invite her to your house where you usually meet to talk about your things and do silly things inmeadiatly' wouldn't it be easier for you to see a feisty and funny and weird girl, with a odd look and a inappropriate way for a young woman of talking?


And no, we don´t but talking about awful cliches you describe yourself as a living one: "cerebrates" talking about out space phenomenon and the importance of who shoot first in star wars first movie, it´s not that important, Han Solo was a contrabandist and greedo a bounty hunter--- shooting first just confirms Han Solo was somebody who faced dangerous individual on daily basis (c´mon!! a bounty hunter missing a target close enough to slap him.... )))
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2016 09:38 am
@momoends,
You've made a nice point, but, that said, group cultural identity cultivates clichés...is part of the ecosystem.
0 Replies
 
 

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