Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

@Walter Hinteler,

You might have spoken about this before, Walter, but what is your personal reason (or reasons) for being against the UK exiting from the European Union?

1 Reply

@Builder,

Personally, by own experience for more than 50 years now, I've never thought that the UK would ever be "European" - the majority.

The are a member of the EU now, since more than 40 years.
And they belong to Europe, more than just geographically.

I don't think that any European country should leave this community, called now 'EU'.
'Europe' can't exist and develop, if every of these small countries acts on its own.

I'm opposed to any kind of "nationalism" [besides in football], but do like regional differences.

My very personal prime reason, however, is just that it will be a situation I had experienced -and didn't like- in my youth, 50 years ago.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Thank you, Walter.

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Two books about the pre-Brexit period have just been published:
Unleashing Demons: The Inside Story of Brexit, by former Downing Street aide Sir Craig Oliver.
and All Out War: The Full Story of How Brexit Sank Britain's Political Class, by The Sunday Times political editor Tim Shipman.

The Independent's report about these two publications: David Cameron ‘badly let down’ by Theresa May during Brexit campaign amid claims she was ‘enemy agent’

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Certainly there are different signals from the 27 EU-countries as well as there are different opinions in the UK.

The UK's Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister have different opinions, too, which surprises me in so far that her Majesty's Government isn't a coalition government: Boris Johnson goes off Theresa May’s script again and says Brexit process should begin before May

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Forty years ago EU did not exist it was EEC.
Extreem nationalism is dangerous - that we see all the time in the news and have seen in history.
Uncritically and naivly to believe EU is the solution to all problems can also be dangerous.
"Thanks to EU there has been no war in Europe" - a often repeated mantra, which is not even correct.
Thanks to NATO nothing happened during the cold war - and thanks to some coldheaded politicians.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Forty years ago EU did not exist it was EEC.

Correct.
But calling it such is easier than referring to the European Economic Community (EEC), the EU after the Maastricht Treaty, the EU after the Lisbon Treaty, etc every time.

But it is incorrect as rightly noted.

saab wrote:

"Thanks to EU there has been no war in Europe" - a often repeated mantra, which is not even correct.
Thanks to NATO nothing happened during the cold war

Well, that is to be seen from the relevant point of view.
But here I agree with David Cameron that it was the (creation of) the EU which prevented war in Europe.
There had been long discussions about this before the Brexit-votum, by the leave and remain campaigns.
Might be that it was another reason to leave the EU.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

So EU has stopped wars in Europe? I would say within EU. I would bet my right hand there would have not been any war amongst the first EU countries anyway.
What do we need an EU army for?
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997-1998 Cyprus Missile Crisis
1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

21st century

2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2004–2013 Unrest in Kosovo
2004 unrest in Kosovo
2008 unrest in Kosovo
2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis
2008 Russia–Georgia war
2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2013–2014 Euromaidan and pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine
2014 Crimean crisis
2014–present War in Donbass

2015-present Wave of Terror in Europe

1 Reply

@saab,

I don't know why you list all that.
But if that's a reason for Brexit, fine with me.
But then my question: why didn't the UK leave earlier? Or why did they join at all?

And: there isn't an EU-army since the EU is no military union. (Atleast not until now and primarily.)

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Brexit pushes 76% of UK CEOs to consider moving headquarters abroad, a KPMG survey, published today, shows.
At the same, 69% of the CEOs are confident the British economy will grow over the next year.

Quote:

Three-quarters of British company bosses are considering moving operations abroad following the vote to leave the European Union, according to a survey published on Monday.

The KPMG survey of 100 UK chief executives, from companies with revenues between 100 million pounds and 1 billion pounds ($130 million-$1.30 billion), found 86 percent were confident about their company's growth prospects and 69 percent were confident about the British economy's growth prospects over the next three years.

However, 76 percent said they were considering moving either their headquarters or their operations outside Britain because of the June 23 "Brexit" vote.

Source

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@Walter Hinteler,

Why did I list it? Because of the sentence ......no war in Europe.

Why did UK not leave earlier or why did they join?
Probably because EU has for many people develope into something they do not like - and that not just in UK. It might be feelings and not facts. But in politics often feelings are greater than facts.

I know there is no EU army but there is talk about it
European Leaders Discuss Plan for European Army
"We are going to move towards an EU army much faster than people believe."

Quote:

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8935/european-army

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@saab,

Okay.
The UK got the majority for the Brexit. And whatever happens in the EU after they've triggered article 50 and (perhaps) made a new deal, isn't really a problem for them, in my opinion: they can be even more happy.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

It really is an aside to the topic but actually the Western European Union did exist as a military alliance from 1954 onwards until it was fully incorporated in the EU.

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@saab,

Yikes.

Gatestone Institute as a reference.

You can't get much more anti-Muslim, neo-conservative than that. That's a scary group of biased, racist people.

___

http://www.alternet.org/investigations/one-americas-most-dangerous-think-tanks-spreading-islamophobic-hate-across-atlantic

Quote:

The Gatestone Institute, a New York-based think tank, has become one of the most important hubs in America’s Islamophobia industry, pumping out reams of dangerous anti-Muslim propaganda of the kind lapped up by far-right mass murderer Anders Breivik.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/notorious-islamophobic-think-tank-inspiring-more-far-right-terrorism

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/gatestone_institute/

https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/04/islamophobe-with-militarist-name-attacks-muslims-for-militarist-names/

links to it are banned on r/Europe

https://www.reddit.com/r/EuropeMeta/comments/3nkc02/why_are_links_to_gatestone_institute_site_banned/

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@ehBeth,

Besides that, article 42 and 46 of the Lisbon Treaty refer to a (voluntury) "common security and defense union" - what is already practiced, e.g. with the Franco-German Brigade, the 1. German-Dutch Corps, and the Multinational Corps Northeast (includes Danish soldiers) as well as with the Eurocorps (declared operational in 1995 [sic!]).

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@ehBeth,

I checked a few of your own links above. It appears that you are exaggerating.. They certainly do see radical Islam as a danger, but the "scary. biased, racist" labels you applied appear unmerited. What labels would you attach to the arguments put forward by the many radical Islamists in the EU?

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Forty years ago EU did not exist it was EEC.
Extreem nationalism is dangerous - that we see all the time in the news and have seen in history.
Uncritically and naivly to believe EU is the solution to all problems can also be dangerous.
"Thanks to EU there has been no war in Europe" - a often repeated mantra, which is not even correct.
Thanks to NATO nothing happened during the cold war - and thanks to some coldheaded politicians.

I agree with saab here. The EU has certainly been an overall success and has accomplished a number of very good things. However, it is not necessarily the solution to all the problems and external challenges faced by the people of the nations making up the continent. Indeed it has, in the eyes of many, exacerbated some of them, snd preserved others through the dead hand of a growing authoritarian brueaucracy. Perrhaps, more to the point, it has also prevented needed action in some cases. That too is a contemporary issue within several EU nations.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-08/angela-merkel-polen-visegrad-staaten-eu-zusammenhalt-viktor-orban

Die Zeit is in no way anti´Muslim and this paper points also to a EU army.
Merkel has talked about it and she is far from anti-Muslim - on the contrary
I do not see that an EU army has anything to do with Muslims..

1 Reply

@saab,

There will be talks about it in Bratislava - the Italians made a proposal, which goes further than the Franco-German one.

But again, I really want to point at article 42 and 46 of the Lisbon treaty: this is nothing new at all.

The UK said, they would oppose it = it won't work (besides, if it is under article 42 and 46).

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@ehBeth,

I really did not know what Gatestone Institute was or is.
I was not looking for anything anti-Muslim or neo conservative or any racist group of people.
I was looking for one thing about EU Army.
It is really nasty to put me into an anti-Muslim group or amongst the racists.
There has come up a tendency in certain circles that if someone just say something critical about EU they are right away called racists or anit-Muslims.
I personally know what it is to be discriminated against as a family. Not because of race but wrong passport.

1 Reply

Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

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