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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2021 11:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
European Commission drops plan to ban UK from science projects
Quote:
The European Commission has dropped plans for a blanket ban on UK involvement in EU research on space projects and supercomputers after a backlash from member states and leading scientists.

Thierry Breton, the former French finance minister who is now the EU internal market commissioner, had claimed the EU needed to keep control of intellectual property and that the UK’s involvement was an unacceptable security risk.

The commission’s proposal was criticised, however, by leading research institutions and questioned by EU capitals, including Germany, Belgium, Spain, Ireland, Italy and the Netherlands. Diplomats were concerned the bloc was treating the UK as if it posed a security risk similar to that of China, sources said.

Following weeks of discussion in Brussels, it is understood that at a meeting of EU diplomats last Friday it was agreed that a blanket prohibition on UK involvement will not be enforced.

Member states insisted the EU capitals would be involved in drafting the criteria for involvement of countries outside of the bloc on a “case by case basis”. Any exclusion of the UK in particular projects will also have to be given the green light by the 27 member states.

“It is still possible for UK entities to be excluded from certain calls, but only based on objective criteria that have been drafted in collaboration with member states,” one diplomat said.
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2021 01:08 am
Threat of ‘sausage war’ draws closer, as minister demands EU ditch trade tariffs
Quote:
The latest dispute about post-Brexit trade concerns chilled meats transported from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

Reports suggest London intends to extend the “grace period” for such products beyond June, meaning the imposition of checks will be delayed.

However, the EU has warned the UK that it will respond “swiftly, firmly and resolutely” to any unilateral action which breaches the protocol, with the European Commission vice president Maros Sefcovic raising the prospect of a trade war.

With tensions rising, Brexit minister David Frost released a statement urging “pragmatism and common sense” from the EU.

“Further threats of legal action and trade retaliation from the EU won’t make life any easier for the shopper in Strabane who can’t buy their favourite product,” he added.

The two sides will meet in London on Wednesday [today] morning to discuss the implementation of the protocol.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2021 07:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The talks between the UK and the EU aimed at resolving the dispute over Brexit checks in Northern Ireland have ended without agreement.
But both sides said, they will keep talking after the "frank and honest discussions" this morning.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2021 10:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Biden arrives with demand that UK settle Brexit row over Northern Ireland
Quote:
Senior US embassy diplomats in London, backed by the US national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, have directly warned the UK’s Brexit negotiator, Lord Frost, that he will inflame tensions in Northern Ireland if he does not compromise over border checks.

A meeting between the US charge d’affaires Yael Lampert, currently America’s most senior diplomat in London, and Frost led to an urging by the US for Britain to come to a negotiated settlement with the EU, according to an internal UK government note.
[...]
Biden’s affection for Ireland, where his ancestors are from, and scepticism about the wisdom of Brexit have hardly been disguised, but he has always accepted the British right to leave the EU. There were some indications in the UK government note that the US was prepared to dangle a free trade agreement as an incentive if the UK compromised over the legitimacy of border checks in Northern Ireland to protect the integrity of the single market.

The US warnings came as direct talks between the EU and the UK over Northern Ireland appeared on the brink of collapse. London indicated it was still considering unilateral action to keep unhindered supplies flowing from Great Britain into the region. The talks are designed to rework the Northern Ireland protocol which set up a post-Brexit trade border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

The European commission vice-president, Maroš Šefčovič, said patience was “wearing very, very thin” and described the relationship with the UK as “at a crossroads”.

Amid fears that the escalating crisis over Northern Ireland would develop into a trade war, Frost said there had been “no breakthroughs” over the Brexit checks but no “breakdowns” either after a two-hour meeting with Šefčovič in London.

They agreed to continue to try to find a solution before 30 June when a ban on chilled meats including sausages and mincemeat is due to come into force.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2021 11:31 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Some of the most vocal critics of the post-Brexit arrangements had a vastly different view last year:

How Tories changed their tune on Northern Ireland protocol
Quote:
Boris Johnson, prime minister
What he said then:
“It ensures for those living and working alongside the border that there will be no visible or practical changes to their lives: they can carry on as before.”

What he says now: “If it looks as though the EU is going to be very dogmatic about it and we continue to [be in an] absurd situation so you can’t bring in rose bushes with British soil into Northern Ireland, you can’t bring British sausages into Northern Ireland, then frankly I’m going to, we’ll have to take further steps.”

Iain Duncan Smith, former Tory leader
What he said then:
“If there is anything about this arrangement [the withdrawal agreement bill] that we have not now debated, thrashed to death, I would love to know what it is.”

What he says now: “The reality is that the protocol is simply not working. These are not teething problems. We have already seen companies that normally ship to Northern Ireland now saying publicly that they will not bother to do so any more if it is too difficult. We are also seeing diversion: some supermarkets and others are talking about depots in southern Ireland rather than in mainland GB.”

Ranil Jayawardena, trade minister
What he said then:
“We will be an independent United Kingdom – and this is a fundamental point – because, unlike the last withdrawal agreement, this deal will mean that Northern Ireland will remain in the UK’s customs territory, so it will not be for foreign powers to decide the future of any part of our country. This new deal that Boris has achieved – against all the odds – will bring an end to the uncertainty and division.”

What he says now: “It is wrong that anyone should be threatening the British sausage. We will stand up for the British sausage and no one will ever be able to destroy it.”

Andrew Bridgen, Conservative MP
What he said then:
“If you had offered me what we’ve got here back in 2016 I wouldn’t have snapped your hand off, I’d have had your arms and your legs as well.”

What he says now: “It’s just clear the EU wants to annex Northern Ireland away from us, which is what they always wanted… Ultimately I think we’re being stitched up by the European Union and it’s had a very bad effect on the DUP - quite rightly.”

Bernard Jenkin, Conservative MP
What he said then:
“NOW we can stop banging on about Europe!” and “the withdrawal agreement represents a compromise Brexit, which we now all must live with, and all can do so because it is a good compromise.”

What he says now: “If the EU insists on an unreasonable interpretation of the withdrawal agreement, the UK must stand ready to repudiate it. I hope it is not necessary, but if it is the only way to achieve UK prosperity and the kind of sovereign independence which is the democratic right of any nation recognised under the UN charter, then so be it. And most other nations would respect us for that.”
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2021 07:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The European Union has agreed to a fishing deal with the UK that could be worth 333 million pounds ($472 million, €388 million) to Britain over the next two years.

The Council of Europe approved the UK′s fishing opportunities and deep-sea stocks for 2020 and 2021 on Friday as part of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement.

The post-Brexit fishing deal aims to provide security to the fishing industry on both sides of the English Channel.

It will now be turned into EU legislation and opens the door to future negotiations on fishing rights.
DW
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2021 10:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Brexiteers lead the political recipients in the Queen’s birthday honours list, with Conservative MP Leadsom (the Tory business secretary) given a damehood.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 03:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Dominic Raab hits out at ‘bloody-minded’ EU ahead of talks on Brexit stand-off on Northern Ireland
Quote:
Dominic Raab has told the EU not to be “bloody-minded” about implementing the Brexit deal for Northern Ireland, ramping up tensions ahead of crucial talks.

In a defiant message, the foreign secretary said the bitter stand-off was putting the unity of the country at risk, vowing: “We will not allow the integrity of the UK to be threatened.”

The criticism came as Boris Johnson faced an onslaught of pressure to end his refusal to impose agreed checks and restrictions on trade across the Irish Sea, in face-to-face talks with EU leaders.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 01:57 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Brexit bust-up torpedoes Johnson’s bid to showcase ‘global Britain’ at G7
Quote:
Boris Johnson was embroiled in an extraordinary public spat with EU leaders over Northern Ireland yesterday as tensions over Brexit boiled over at the G7 summit in Cornwall.

After a series of tense bilateral meetings at which the French president Emmanuel Macron, the German chancellor Angela Merkel and the European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen, told their summit host the UK must implement the Brexit deal in full, an unrepentant Johnson said he had urged his EU colleagues to “get it into their heads” that the UK is “a single country”.

[The 'United Kingdom' ('UK')refers to a political union between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Although the UK is a fully independent sovereign state, the 4 nations that make it up are also countries in their own right and have a certain extent of autonomy.]
Quote:
And in a further explosive intervention, Johnson then reiterated the UK’s threat to suspend the Northern Ireland protocol unilaterally, by invoking article 16 – a move that would almost certainly provoke trade retaliation from Brussels. He told Sky News the EU was constructing “all kinds of impediments” instead of applying the protocol “sensibly”.

“I think we can sort it out, but it is up to our EU friends and partners to understand that we will do whatever it takes,” he said. “If the protocol continues to be applied in this way, then we will obviously not hesitate to invoke article 16, as I have said before.”

The row overshadowed a summit at which Johnson had hoped to showcase “global Britain” as a strong and independent force on the world stage after Brexit. Instead, former British ambassadors said his failure to honour a Brexit deal that he himself had helped negotiate had fatally undermined trust in his government and damaged its international reputation.

Nigel Sheinwald, a former UK ambassador to Washington and the EU, said: “The lesson of this week is that you can’t have a global Britain which is genuinely respected and influential and impactful around the world if people doubt your basic bona fides.” Referring to a document signed at the summit by Johnson and US president Joe Biden, he added: “There is no point in writing new Atlantic charters which depend on mutual trust, mutual confidence and the rule of law, when you are operating as chancers.”
0 Replies
 
Jsorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 03:28 pm
The EU appears to be a rather vindictive and authoritarian bureaucracy. Likely this was a factor in persuading the majority of UK citizens from wanting out of it. Interestingly the Brits appear never to have fully bought into either the "ever closer union" mantra. or the Eurozone (which they rejected out of hand.) In retrospect I suspect their eventual departure was predictable from the start.

I wonder which member will be next. ( Being tied to the German currency is likely not a pleasant experience in the southern & eastern regions of the Union).
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 09:42 pm
@Jsorel,
Jsorel wrote:
( Being tied to the German currency is likely not a pleasant experience in the southern & eastern regions of the Union).
Germany doesn't have an own currency.
Builder
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 11:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Germany doesn't have an own currency.


It's almost painful, the level of ignorance you display on this thread, Walter.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2018/01/23/the-german-swindle-built-into-the-euro/?sh=34d4f0bb27da

The German economy, most especially the German elite, has done very well for itself because of the union and the euro, not a little of it at the expense of the rest of Europe. One need not be a cynic to suspect that such less principled but nonetheless compelling motivations also direct Berlin’s commitment.

The euro was supposed to have had a universally helpful impact on all of Europe. Its designers claimed that it would give the EU stature to rival other powerful economies, the United States, Japan, and China in particular. All Europe would benefit, they said, from the trade increases that would follow as people and business shed worry over currency fluctuations, while the absence of currency risk would keep interest rates low, giving especially smaller, weaker members the advantage of cheaper credit that would encourage more investment and economic development. The trade and growth would deepen economic integration, give residents of the union a greater diversity of goods and services, and create a more unified and resilient European economy. It has of course not turned out this way. Instead the euro has locked in distorting and inequitable currency mispricings, giving some in the common currency, most notably Germany, great advantages over others.

These problems, in no small part, developed from the enthusiasm that accompanied the run up to the euro. High hopes for weaker economies, Greece, Spain, Portugal, and to a lesser extent Italy, bid up the values of their individual national currencies so that they joined the euro at values far above those supportable by their economic fundamentals. The overpricing gave these governments and their populations an inflated sense of their global economic purchasing power, encouraging spending and borrowing beyond their ability to support such behavior. Meanwhile, the inflated currency values put their producers at a competitive disadvantage. With separate currencies, reality would eventually have forced a depreciation that would have rectified both problems. But the euro, once established, locked in the mispricing.

For Germany, the opposite set of conditions prevailed. At the time, it was still suffering from the economic difficulties of its reunification. Its deutschemark was weaker than its economic fundamentals could otherwise have supported. Once that value was locked into the euro, German consumers acquired a deflated sense of their global buying power and so proceeded more cautiously than others in Europe. German producers meanwhile discovered that the euro had effectively locked in pricing for their goods and services well below levels with which they otherwise could have coped. International Monetary Fund (IMF) data suggests that at the euro’s inception, this currency distortion gave German industry a 6% competitive advantage compared with the country’s economic fundamentals.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 11:49 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

It's almost painful, the level of ignorance you display on this thread, Walter.
I'm absolutely sorry to cause you pain, Builder, but who forces you to my response or this thread in general?

Btw: I live in Germany. And although there might be some old coins in Pfennigs or even Marks in our household: the DM coins and banknotes were only legal up to and including 31 December 2001. (But they can be exchanged for Euros at the Bundesbank and its branches for an unlimited period and free of charge.)
Builder
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 11:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I'm absolutely sorry to cause you pain, Builder


I'm not convinced of your authenticity on that topic, Walter.

Quote:
but who forces you to my response or this thread in general?


I can tell that you'd prefer that nobody contributes anything to your thread.

Quote:
Btw: I live in Germany.


And you presume that gives you an inside edge on what's happening in the EU in general? Why would you think that?

The rest of your post is about a previous currency. Not even close to the current topic.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2021 12:06 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
The rest of your post is about a previous currency. Not even close to the current topic.
You might have overlooked some details of my response.
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Jsorel wrote:
( Being tied to the German currency is likely not a pleasant experience in the southern & eastern regions of the Union).
Germany doesn't have an own currency.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2021 12:08 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
I can tell that you'd prefer that nobody contributes anything to your thread.
To which one of my threads are you referring specially? And how do you know what I prefer?
Builder
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2021 01:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
To which one of my threads are you referring specially?


Did you mean "specifically"? Because "specially" is lacking a C.

I'm not aware of another thread where you prefer to talk to yourself. Do you have several of them, Walter?

Quote:
And how do you know what I prefer?


Your actions, and specifically your reactions, make it obvious that you'd rather just post updates, without the hassle of having to respond to incoming queries.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2021 02:45 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
Did you mean "specifically"? Because "specially" is lacking a C.

If specifically lacks a C - why did you write it with a lowercase letter?

Builder wrote:
I'm not aware of another thread where you prefer to talk to yourself. Do you have several of them, Walter?

You wrote:
I can tell that you'd prefer that nobody contributes anything to your thread.
I've started a few threads, "my threads".

Builder wrote:
Your actions, and specifically your reactions, make it obvious that you'd rather just post updates, without the hassle of having to respond to incoming queries.
Lash's question was: "Why do Brits want Out of the EU?"
Certainly many of responses don't answer this.
It's however good that you take care of her thread and remind me of the original question. Thank you.
Jsorel
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2021 08:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I used the the term "German currency" to convey the chief ,and very ironic, effect of the adoption of the Euro currency some years ago. Builder explained the point well. Germany is a major exporter of goods and its chief markets are in the EU. Its main trading partners are locked into its currency and unable ton use the devaluation that would otherwise occur to compete effectively.

It has become very much like the old Sterling Zone that until WWII the British used very effectively to lock its current & former colonies into its trading trading domain.

I have no animus towards European Union in general: in the first decades after WWII the Common Market and its successors were a major and very beneficial factor in the remarkably successful economic recovery of Western Europe from the ravages of WWII. However, the structure of the EU appears to involve no statutory limits on the power and reach of the central EU government. That and the increasingly bureaucratic character of that government (and that of the U.S. as well) are in my view dangerous and destructive trends. In the case of the EU, i believe that is the central issue behind Brexit, the subject of this thread.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2021 09:07 am
Quote:
(...)

Johnson and his allies emphasize that Brexit did not happen in a vacuum. In The Globalization Paradox, the Harvard economist Dani Rodrik notes that the more tightly the world’s economies intertwine, the less influence national governments can have over the lives of their citizens. For a long time, governments—including Britain’s—believed that the economic benefits of globalization outweighed that cost. But when this bargain began to reveal its emptiness, particularly after 2008, voters demanded more control. In Britain this was particularly acute, because the country was more exposed than most, with its oversize financial sector and open economy. It was ripe for a revolt to “take back control”—the “Leave” campaign’s central promise.

Johnson has vowed to use the power of government to reinvigorate industry and boost growth outside London, using levers that he says wouldn’t be available if the country were still in the EU. One aide told me Johnson had ordered civil servants to reject conservative orthodoxies about government intervention being bad and to be “more creative and more confident around who we choose to back.” It’s an unusual approach for someone caricatured as a right-wing ideologue; on the American political spectrum, Johnson’s policies would fall well to the left of center.

The prime minister told me he doesn’t want the EU to fragment—he just doesn’t want Britain to be a part of it. For too long, Johnson and his team believe, Britain has been “living out a foreign policy of a world that has gone,” one of his closest advisers said. Beijing and Moscow have shown us the limits of the rules-based order. Britain can no longer afford to be a “status quo power” naively trying to resurrect a defunct system. “The world is moving faster,” the adviser said, “and therefore we have got to get our **** together and move faster with it.”

(...)

Whenever you talk to Johnson, you bump up against an all-encompassing belief that things will be fine. He believes, for example, that the threat of Scottish independence will melt away over time, with Brexit acting as a centripetal force pulling the U.K. back together.

Yet Johnson understands the art of politics better than his critics and rivals do. He is right that his is a battle to write the national story, and that this requires offering people hope and agency, a sense of optimism and pride in place. He has shown that he is a master at finding the story voters want to hear.

Whether he succeeds or fails matters beyond Britain’s borders. As democratic states look for ways to answer the concerns of voters without descending into the authoritarian Orbánism of Eastern Europe or the Trumpian populism that has consumed the Republican Party, Johnson is beginning a test run for a conservative alternative that may prove attractive, or at least viable.

But with Britain finally outside the European Union, Johnson must now address problems that cannot be dealt with by belief alone. If his domestic economic project fails, some fear the country will turn toward xenophobic identity politics. If he cannot unify the country at home, his bid to make Britain more assertive on the world stage may prove impossible. If he cannot fend off demands for Scottish independence, the state will fracture. “Telling everyone everything is fine is not the same as everything is fine,” Tony Blair told me.

(...)

Boris Johnson knows exactly what he’s doing.
0 Replies
 
 

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